If you can vote, who will you vote for; if you can't, who would you want to vote for?

Admittedly, I am not educated enough to debate you about socialism vs. capitalism effectively. However, this guy is. Please watch the ENTIRE VIDEO before rebutting.

So let's redo our proposed situation. Are you more likely to commit a shooting in your hypothetical world, where guns are not easy to acquire, and carrying them is discouraged; or in my hypothetical world, where many people are armed possession of guns is encouraged. You will, unless I am mistaken, claim that in your hypothetical world you would not be able to get guns to shoot people with. But people still have access to drugs, even though those are illegal. Desperate people will always be able to get guns.
I am aware that often the goal of these people is not to live, and many of them kill themselves shortly after committing these crimes, but if lots of people are armed, it will minimize the damage to bystanders.

I thought we were just talking about the "mentally unstable", not those committing premeditated acts. So for the people you are talking about, with a plan - say, to hold hostages for ransom: they will certainly be able to access guns, no matter how regulated they are in the same way that drug lords can always access drugs. As for my defense, and back to your original question of why people think the only way to defend themselves is by shooting someone. Maybe I do just want to talk it out. They won't listen to me if I don't give them a reason to. And if me and maybe a few of my fellow hostages have guns that is certainly a reason. Sure, they will be way better armed than we are, but they don't want to lose their own men, and it will be advantageous to them not to risk it, no matter how stacked the odds are in their favor. Also, say they go to kill one of the hostages to put the pressure on the police. Surprise! I've got a gun. That'll make them think twice. And if many of the hostages have guns, they're going to have a real problem. There's a reason no one holds hostages at a shooting range or gun store.
As for the dehumanization of criminals, I do not understand how that is relevant. If someone has a gun, (or any weapon) and is threatening me or those around me, I don't care if they have the intelligence of Thomas Jefferson or an orangutan. My goal is the safety of those around me and myself. All else becomes secondary, and if I can achieve that safety by either talking or shooting, I will of course try to help the criminal, but if that does not work, I will not hesitate to neutralize him.
P.S. I am aware no one is trying to take guns away completely, and I think regulation can in many ways be helpful, but I think a far more viable solution is to encourage people to carry guns to protect themselves.

So then at what point is it determined the baby will become a human (again barring any unlikely events)? According to Bill Nye it is when the egg is "attached to the uteran wall". My original argument still holds, with merely a minor change of definition.

 

trump will survive and win

 

I don't really have an opinion on who to vote for but no one should vote for Hillary Clinton because she should be in prison right now for talking about secret information on a private server and it was all swept under the rug. I don't know much about politics but i know their shouldn't be a president that should be in jail.

--- Double Post Merged, May 10, 2016, Original Post Date: May 10, 2016 ---

Also this might be a little helpful. http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2013/10/how-spot-reptilians-runing-us-government/354496/

 

1) never assume i care what some entitled, sexist, islamophobic, homophobic, transphobic white man has to say.
2) People. Are. More. Likey. To. Commit. Crimes. When. Guns. Are. Easily. Accessible. More. Individuals. With. Guns. Just. Raises. That. Risk.
3) they are threatening you for a specific goal or you would already be dead. no amount of guns could prevent an unexpected immediate attack, and they only hesitate when there's something more you can offer them. You're viewing criminals as if theyre some 2d video game character and you're The Hero™.
4) a fetus isn't a human until they've reached viability at 24 weeks.

 

1) Firstly, I see no evidence that he is any of those things except a white male. Did you watch the entire video? And even if he is all those adjectives, you would automatically disqualify his point? That is ignorant on your part. If I'm the best heart surgeon in the world and you need a complicated procedure done, are you going to reject my care just because of my beliefs? That's not a very smart move.

2) I think whether or not they will be more likely to commit crimes has more factors than you are considering. They will have better access to gun, but they will also be easier to stop when lots of people have guns. Whether those two would balance out for the good of everyone I don't know, but I believe they would. Let's look at Switzerland. It is mandatory (or at least was a few decades ago, I'm not sure what they're up to today) for all citizens to own a gun and be trained to use it. All citizens serve a mandatory two years in the militia. As a result, Switzerland has the lowest crime rates in the world.

3) "No amount of guns could prevent an unexpected immediate attack. . ." That is false. All of these shootings would have been much worse had people with guns not been nearby.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pearl_High_School_shooting
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parker_Middle_School_dance_shooting
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_Colorado_YWAM_and_New_Life_shootings
http://www.uticaod.com/article/20100527/NEWS/305279879
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sullivan_Central_High_School#2010_shooting
http://www.cachevalleydaily.com/news/local/article_b0204536-12c5-11e4-a46f-001a4bcf6878.html
http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/Mercy-Fitzgerald-Hospital-on-Lockdown-268489642.html

4) I am not concerned at what point you think the fetus "is a human", because at the point when the fertilized egg attaches to the uteran wall, we know it will become a human. See my original argument.

 

1) check out his channel. don't absorb the opinions of just anyone. Because of his prejudices his stance and opinions are invalid. And oh you want to play scenario? How about this very real one: doctors who let women die because it is against their beliefs to abort an unviable fetus to save her life. Your scenario is bs and doesn't happen.
2)

chRIST you skip the first step everytime - crimes are committed by normal individuals and then those in the criminal business. we cant prevent the latter, but the former can be prevented. And I'm not sure if you've noticed but switzerland is an outlier in literally every scenario throughout all of history and can literally never be used as a valid point. And what's more, the gun owners of switzerland have all have mandated training in order to have those guns!!! which is way more than we have here! We're just asking for background checks and such!!! Obviously if only trained individuals have guns there are going to be less crimes, it's literally a society where everyone has a cop living in their home.
3) ya gonna make me individually dissect all of these for the love of god
Pearl High School shooting
The gunman, 16-year-old Luke Woodham (born February 5, 1981), killed two students and injured seven others at his high school. Before the shooting at Pearl High School began, Woodham stabbed and bludgeoned his mother to death in her home.
Woodham then drove his mother's Toyota Corsa to Pearl High School. Wearing a trench coat to hide his rifle when he entered the school, Woodham fatally shot Lydia Kaye Dew and Christina Menefee, his former girlfriend, then went on to wound seven others.
During the subsequent investigation, Woodham's journal was examined by police. In it, he detailed how he and a friend had tortured his dog Sparkle to death, several months prior to the shooting:

"I will never forget the howl she made. It sounded almost human. We laughed and hit her hard."

Summary: He should have never had access to the gun in the first place. It was his rifle he took, how did he, an emotionally unstable teenager, get his hands on a lethal weapon?

Parker Middle School dance shooting
Andrew Jerome Wurst, 14, fatally shot 48-year-old John Gillette, and wounded another teacher and two students[1] at Nick's Place (a nearby banquet hall) during an 8th grade dinner dance.
Prior to the shooting, Andrew Wurst was described as an average student, and somewhat of a loner. One student noticed that he had become curt and unfriendly prior to the shooting, and had told others that he wanted to "kill people and commit suicide". He was later sentenced to 60 years in prison.[3] He had no history of mental illness prior to the shooting.
Wurst showed up late to the dance, with his father's .25-caliber pistol in a holster belt under his jacket. He had previously left a suicide note under his pillow, and stated to investigators that he planned to go to the dance and kill only himself.[4]

Summary: Mentally unstable teenager got access to a lethal weapon due to carelessness on the gun owner's part.

2007 Colorado YWAM and New Life shooting
In the early morning hours of December 9, 2007, 24-year-old Matthew J. Murray opened fire at the Youth With A Mission training center in Arvada, Colorado, with a pistol, killing two and wounding two others before escaping. Later that afternoon, he attacked the New Life Church in Colorado Springs, Colorado, with a number of firearms, killing two more people and injuring three before being shot by Jeanne Assam.
Court records indicated that Murray was bitter over his expulsion from the 12-week missionary training program.
Murray was expelled from the school due to "strange behavior," which included playing frightening rock music and claiming to hear voices.[19][20] Before the second shooting, Murray left several violent and threatening messages on several religious websites, espousing his hatred for Christianity and his intentions on killing as many Christians as possible.
One message read: "I'm coming for EVERYONE soon and I WILL be armed to the ...teeth and I WILL shoot to kill. ...God, I can't wait till I can kill you people. Feel no remorse, no sense of shame, I don't care if I live or die in the shoot-out. All I want to do is kill and injure as many of you ... as I can especially Christians who are to blame for most of the problems in the world."

Summary: Mentally unstable adult with a history of hate speech got access to a lethal weapon due to poor regulation.

Man shot dead at AT&T store planned to kill 6
When a 79-year-old retired Griffiss Air Force Base worker bent on revenge walked into a village AT&T store Thursday afternoon, he had one intent — to kill six employees.

He began his grim mission by taking aim with a .357 Magnum at a 37-year-old store worker at the front counter and firing.
Dickan, of 26 Richardson Ave. in South Utica, had previously clashed with the AT&T employees and had displayed a gun at least once before, police said.
In the note found in his pocket after the shooting, Dickan also wrote about being angry that his pistol license had been revoked, police said.
But before Abraham Dickan could shoot any of the other employees whose names he carried on a letter in his pocket, the Utica man was shot dead in the middle of the store by an off-duty Rome police officer who happened to be there shopping, authorities said.

Summary: Man's pistol license is revoked, but guns were not revoked. Man still has access to guns- and now has grudges. Was taken out by a trained professional.

Sullivan Central High School
Ms. Gudger immediately pulled her issued pistol and distracted him long enough to get the principal, Melanie Riden, to safety. The Officer ordered him to put his gun down. After leading him to an empty room, then a hallway, he began rambling about the Government and political issues. He attempted to pull a fire alarm in order to "get these kids out of here". Gudger kept talking to him while holding her pistol on him. His patience seemed to wane and he said, "lady, I don't want to have to shoot you". After Cowan closed one eye, and appeared to contemplate firing, Gudger heard an order from the police. "Sheriff's office! Put the gun down!". The Sullivan County Sheriff's Office had arrived. The man aimed at officers and was then shot when he aimed his weapon at the S.R.O. The suspect was the only person injured and was airlifted to a local hospital, where he later died.[3]

Summary: Woman with issued pistol prevented violence. Police were called. Police handled it.

Cache Valley Hospital shooting
The report said when Burr entered the waiting room lobby he demanded to see his doctor saying that “someone is going to die today.” He first brandished a Taurus 9mm and loaded a round into the chamber. He later pulled out a smaller .38 caliber Derringer from his pocket, so that he had a gun in each hand. The videos later show Adult Probation and Parole agent Clint Lund entering the lobby, confronting Burr and shooting him.

Summary: Unstable man wants needless violence - is taken out by trained professional.

Case Worker Dead, 2 Others Shot at Mercy-Fitzgerald Hospital Campus
A psychiatric patient opened fire inside a wellness center in Darby, PA, Thursday, according to police. His case worker was killed, and a doctor suffered a graze wound to the head. In the exchange, police tell NBC10 the doctor returned fire with his own gun, critically wounding the suspect.

Summary: Literal psychiatric patient got access to a gun.

Stricter gun regulation wouldn't prevent those with good intentions from getting a gun, but rather the perpetrators from having access to them. To round this back to the initial topic of the thread, here's Bernie on guns:

“Folks who do not like guns [are] fine. But we have millions of people who are gun owners in this country — 99.9 percent of those people obey the law. I want to see real, serious debate and action on guns, but it is not going to take place if we simply have extreme positions on both sides. I think I can bring us to the middle.”​

Gun control legislation should ultimately fall on individual states, with the exception of instant background checks to prevent firearms from finding their way into the hands of criminals and the mentally ill, and a federal ban on assault weapons.

He voted in favor of requiring background checks to prevent firearms from getting into the hands of felons and the mentally ill, passing a federal ban on assault weapons, and closing loopholes which allows private sellers at gun shows and on the internet to sell to individuals without background checks.​

4) Until the bundle of cells can live without feeding off the mother's body - it is no more than a parasite and should not be granted the same rights as a human. By disallowing women from eradicating this parasite from their body and instead placing a burden of 9 months of pregnancy, emotional, economical, and physical strain - you're dehumanizing the actual human being.

 

Very well. As to the discussion on gun control, you have me convinced. Stricter background checks would be a good way to prevent crimes.
As for your statement about the video, I am not concerned about his worldview or biases. Simply put the man aside and refute the arguments. If you can obviously see an argument is tainted by his worldview, then that's fine. Just point that out, and move on to the next statement.
As for your stance on abortion, it is clear to me that you and I cannot come to an agreement, so let us drop the subject. Let me simply say that by your definition, you and I were both once parasites, and you support the right of your mother to have decided to end you before you ever got the chance to exist. And if you should someday decide to have an abortion, no one will know what you may have robbed the world of. I am aware that this is an emotional argument, and has no bearing on the discussion at hand, but at least consider it, because it is true.

 

If my mother decided to end her pregnancy, which she would have no reason to- she was in a loving marriage in a stable economic position and loves children, then that would have been her choice. I would not have been an entity capable of thought which could dispute it. Don't even start on "what ifs" and "robbing the world", you aren't robbing the world of anything. In the universe what exists and has existed was always going to, and what never came to be is a limitless list of both positive and negative outcomes. This isn't an emotional battle, I'm not trying to convince you to morally agree with abortion, that's your own belief. However your belief does not overpower my own, or the beliefs of those who wish to get an abortion. Your beliefs cannot take away their rights nor mine.

 

Do you have any refute of the video?
And of my analogy earlier, in which I am a doctor: The point of it was to be an exaggerated and rather silly situation to demonstrate to you your fallacy. It was not designed to be a reasonable situation, but quite the opposite.

 

If you'd like to argue specific points of the video, by all means, but I'm not going to listen to that man speak. His opinions are fogged by prejudice and privilege. At this point we've come far from the initial topic of the thread.

 

Why the hell should we have to sit through 19 minutes of a guy talking about it? Can't you paraphrase it?

--- Double Post Merged, May 12, 2016, Original Post Date: May 12, 2016 ---

For the record, my take on democratic socialism is this: It can work but there has to be a lot of conditions met. The reasons is works in countries like Denmark is because they aren't necessarily a country that produces a lot and is relied on by their allies. I don't think the United States would do so well in democratic socialism, however moving a little to the left will do many good things.

--- Double Post Merged, May 12, 2016 ---

I'll just leave it at this: For a person to be considered legally dead, they have to lose a certain set of brainwaves. The brain defines your every sense of conscience. Fetuses don't typically develop these brainwaves until about the 20th week, which is way after abortion is illegal. In a sense, a fetus within the first trimester is about as alive and conscience as a dead person.

As for the morality of abortion, there's really no clear answer. We can go back and forth and neither of us will really come up with a clear answer.

 

This doesn't really follow logically...

No, it really isn't. It's a society where every man has a weapon (note not a firearm; the guns issues in Sweden are intended to defend their owner from threats, mainly foreign in nature), and is trained in proper usage and safety. It's the equivalent of everybody being in the National Guard.

Demonstrate the carelessness, please.

Stopped by a civilian with a gun.

Stopped by a civilian with a gun

Could you give us the rest of this story? You really started at the end, and we have no idea what it's based on or what has happened.

Okay...? So basically: "Deputy Sheriff does his job."

Stopped by a civilian with a gun.

Let me give you a counterexample. The port Arthur massacre. Essentially, one guy killed thirty five people, and it took police over a day to get him. In Australia, guns are severely restricted. If people had been carrying (as in the U.S.) it is likely that it would have been ended much sooner, most likely with fewer casualties.

 

its like you didn't read my post at all. I never said that we should take away guns?? ? I'm not asking to take guns away from those heroic civilians, my point was many of the crimes could have been prevented had there been just slightly more regulation. Background checks, mental evaluation, etc. That's it. This really isn't that much to ask for. When you buy a car, you have to have good credit to get a loan so they know you can pay it back . You should have a good background to buy a gun so they know you aren't likely to use it for heedless violence.

 

You don't know that those crimes would have been prevented though. If someone is unstable and wants to do harm, they can get a gun elsewhere. Suppose if the heroic civilians in these situations hadn't passed the background check, and the shooter had, the shooter could have caused a lot more damage. Is it worth the risk?

 

WHERE elsewhere? Underground? most of the violent crimes committed are on impulse, it's incredibly more difficult for people to find guns illegally than legally. They wouldn't go through that effort, and would take a knife or something, which is what a lot of unstable teenagers do anyway when they can't get a gun - and they're much easier to catch that way with very very few casualties. There still remains more of a risk to have easily accessible guns to all than to have selectively accessible guns.

 

You don't know any of this though. It sounds good when you say it and it seems like that's what would happen, but when it comes down to it you're guessing.

 

I'M guessing? You're the one guessing here with extreme incredibly unlikely scenarios.

 

Anarchy 2016

 

Most of the examples you cited were premeditated.

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 5, 2016, Original Post Date: Jun 5, 2016 ---

I don't think this happens very often because:
A. doctors take an oath to protect human life
B. The whole argument against abortion is that it's a waste of human life, and it's therefore counterproductive to let an already established life end to possibly save another one
C. If the mother dies, the baby will probably die also
D. It's general practice (from what I've heard) to try and save the mother first, baby second, unless otherwise requested.

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 5, 2016 ---

Your entire argument hinges on the idea that a fetus shouldn't have rights.