Gay Rights

messaged in PM.

 

Erm... I do? Because I'm an empathetic compassionate human-being. I want people to be happy. To strive for optimal levels of 'well-being'.

If I genuinely believed that acts of homosexuality would damn one to an eternal life of excruciating torture, surely it would be incredibly nice of me to spend my time trying to win you over? These anti-gay preachers arn't evil people. They have good intentions, as does pretty much everyone on the planet. The problem is that they are being motivated by ideas, false ideas. I think we should be tackling that, rather than promoting an apathetic attitude toward others.

You're incredibly rude for someone who's an admin. Didn't you scold me once in a PM for offending others? Do you really think that it's a good idea for you to be posting content like this, while encouraging others *not* to act in this way?

That could not be more untrue. I care about religion, gay-rights, and... 'anything' [wtf?]. Because I care about people. I submit that if you care about anyone, yourself included, you'd care about ideologies that have significant influence worldwide. Dictating everything from education and politics, to how you treat your fellow man.

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 8, 2015, Original Post Date: Dec 8, 2015 ---

I don't think so. I'm almost sure you didn't mean it this way, but I think it's incredibly condescending to think that people 'need' religion to cope with reality. That... most are incapable of dealing with harsh truths without being lied to.

We have so much data proving that people don't need religion as a coping mechanism. Look at all the deconverts, people that leave religion and abandon superstition and these mechanisms. Who says you need a religion to 'cope' with harsh truths anyway? You can believe in an afterlife without adhering to any religion, for example.

I don't think we should be feeding people misinformation and lies just because they're uncomfortable in their own ignorance. If humanity doesn't know the answer to the question, we need to promote the idea that... well, we just don't know yet. But we're still looking! Let's not accept answers without evidential support that stop us from finding out the truth. Be curious, be comfortable in your fallibility, but don't hide your desire to change that.

Beliefs don't just live in a vacuum though. Beliefs are not inconsequential, and have implications for the way you lead your life on a daily basis.

I want to believe as many true things, and as few false things as possible. Because I recognise that what I believe -- ultimately -- influences how I act. I act in accordance with my beliefs. And the more accurate my beliefs are, the better decisions I'll make, because they better line up with the reality I experience. I you care about others, I submit that you have to care about the truth. To care more about uncertain tentative and potentially uncomfortable propositions, than lies that just make you happy.

Really? You don't see religion as a bad thing? I have no idea how someone can come to that determination, give the impact religion has on the world on a daily basis. Millions of people being persecuted, tortured, maimed, maligned, oppressed and murdered. Every single day, due to religion. That's not even counting other species that are harmed by religion. Or how societies stagnate, where religion gets in the way of science and progression. I really could go on.

I don't think I ever said that. Please point to where you think I said that.

I actually care about people, Tim. I really care about people. Children being mercilessly raped by priests abusing their power. Radical Muslims slaughtering people every day. The opposition to women's and gay rights across the globe.

If you don't care about the impact that religion has on others, just say so. I do, because I'm a compassionate empathetic human-being. I want as much happiness and as little suffering in this world, as humanly possible. What's your excuse?

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 8, 2015 ---

It's so frustrating that ^this^ happens so regularly. That people (seemingly) find it so hard to represent my views honestly.

Please quote me on where I implied that Christianity (or a "group and state") is "basically worse than ISIS". I never did so. This is a common tactic to make your own views seem more reasonable, and I find it a little underhanded.

I want to 'bash' groups that cause unfair harm unto others. More accurately, I want to hold violent and immoral groups accountable, that's it. I have never equated Christianity to ISIS. Christianity promotes a lot of horrific ideas, yes? A lot of violence, a lot of unethical practices. Yet you still defend the book and religion that promotes these. I ask you for the 3rd time now, why?

Hang on... did you just essentially brush off criticism of your religion, because... 'Life's a b*tch'? That's essentially what you're saying, right?

I find it sad that you are willing to overlook such egregious human-rights offenses that happen as a direct result of your religion, just because there is already a lot of harm going on in the world, in other places.

If ANYthing, that should make us *more* concerned. More willing to take action, and to right the wrongs of your religion. Just because we can't live in a society with zero suffering, doesn't mean that we shouldn't strive for one in which there is as little suffering as possible.

I'm stunned. That someone can essentially say that "There will always be injustice/suffering, so it doesn't really matter whether there's a little more of it caused by my religion.". This is such a dangerous belief, that you could rationalise any relatively small atrocity away, in this manner.

See a man getting mugged and beaten in the street? "Eh, I won't intervene and save him. The world will never be fair to everyone. People are horrible and we do stuff that is cruel. I accept the beating that this man is taking."

 

When I was a little kid, I thought "ewww thats wrong". But I later decided not to judge people and now, although not gay myself, I am perfectly fine with gay, lesbian, and anyone being different. So yes, I definately think they should be treated the same. Be mature, people.

EDIT: I didn't know the Bible was against gay people. I am christian, and although I respect the Bible's guidlines, suprisingly I strongly disagree with this. It is unfair and wrong.

 

You can always... unwatch the thread.

Also, doesn't matter if nobody can agree on this topic. Debate is healthy. People's minds evolve gradually when introduced to both sides of the story. You think without debate we'd ever get stuff done?

 

I dont even have to read the thread to see that no one is homophobic
In this day and age if you are intolerant to any other group you will get shot on sight.

 

I DO care about the impact religion has on people and it's a horrible thing. Nearly every war has had at least some ties to religion. All that I am saying is that some people need it. I however do not personally condone it.

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 9, 2015 ---

That doesn't ever happen. However, homosexual people can legally be shot and killed on sight in some countries, if that's what you meant by that.

 

I'm not talkin about other countries, Im talking about the U.S.

 

I've already explained that this isn't the case, though.

"We have so much data proving that people don't need religion as a coping mechanism. Look at all the deconverts, people that leave religion and abandon superstition and these mechanisms. Who says you need a religion to 'cope' with harsh truths anyway? You can believe in an afterlife without adhering to any religion, for example."

You also said that religion wasn't a bad thing, now you're saying that it's a horrible thing. You implied that I said that religion was entirely bad, yet I still havn't seen anything to back up that claim.

You've barely addressed a single word that I put forward to you. This is the problem I have with people in this forum. They don't want to engage in a back 'n' forth, they just want everyone else to hear what they have to say, without engaging in any meaningful criticism. (And heck, if you have any criticism of me, I want it too!)

 

Okay, here is my criticism:
Too blunt, Debatheist. Just too blunt. Next time, try and address your problems with other people with tact and diplomacy. For example, instead of this:

You could say:
Your claim that I said religion was entirely bad needs evidence to support it. Just a tip.

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 9, 2015, Original Post Date: Dec 9, 2015 ---

Being Christian too, and an avid reader, I have actually read the Bible, and parts of the Qur'an, and, surprisingly, attitudes towards gays, lesbians and, indeed those of different races do fluctuate a lot.
The Bible:
For gays: "There is neither Jew nor Greek, no slave nor free, no male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus" Galatians 3:28
Against gays: "Do not be deceived...neither the sexually immoral...nor men who practice homosexuality...will enter the kingdom of God." 1 Corinthians 6:9-11
The Qur'an:
For gays: "All people are equal...as the teeth of a comb." The Hadith of Muhammad (p.b.u.h)
Against gays: "You lust after men instead of women. Truly, you are a degenerate people." Al-Araf

 

Really? How is the following untactful or insensitive?

"You implied that I said that religion was entirely bad, yet I still havn’t seen anything to back up that claim."

Every post does not need to be sugar-coated for the easily sensitive. I was not abusive, I was not insulting, and I was not making any personal attacks. Not even close. As opposed to...

"So shut your mouth... Go suck on your pacifier and cry to your mom... No one asked for your idiocy here... go back to your life of placing Iron blocks in Minecraft because thats really what people with lives do."

From epick. This is abusive, insulting and making personal attacks. A post that he's since deleted, no clues as to why. Question. Why arn't you chastising him for his posts?

The greatest irony in all of this? Is that you're being just as blunt (arguably more so) than I was in the post that you've quoted.

Stop tone-policing, and address the substance. I merely asked an individual to back up their claims.

indeed those of different races do fluctuate a lot.

Sounds like a *perfect* book!

Galatians 3:28

That [E: does] not specify gays.

For the uninitiated - http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/gay/long.htm

The Q'uran goes much further to condemn homosexuality. http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/quran/026-homosexuality.htm

 

Point taken.

 

I mean the impact it has had on the world as a whole is bad, but for certain individuals it can be beneficial

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 9, 2015, Original Post Date: Dec 9, 2015 ---

Also, you didn't explicitly say "all religion is bad" but I saw it as your implied opinion. If that is a misunderstanding, I apologize for assuming so.

 

That reply means a lot to me. Thank you for your support. I see a lot of opposition, but a lot of support. The support means a lot to me, and the opposition, let's just say I'm not happy with it. People are people, it doesn't matter what your views are as long as they don't affect me. You people have the right to be homophobic, I'm not standing in your way, but the supporters have the right to be for it. I'm for it. (I kind of have to be, It'd be weird if I was lesbian and not supportive of LGBT rights). I think this thread is important. Everyone should see it (In my opinion).

 

Actually, we'd do a lot. Just not as well.

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 9, 2015, Original Post Date: Dec 9, 2015 ---

Deal with it.

 

It's like you know what I believe and put it in a way that I should have said.

 

Tim, I don't doubt that. I don't think anyone would doubt that.

On the whole, I'm arguing that it is worth opposing. Because (generally) it is a force for harm.

Not only that, but the times when it is good, there are usually better secular alternatives available. We should be striving for the best, not just for "What works" and "What doesn't".

Lesson learned, hopefully? Though I am still curious as to where you got this notion from in the first place. If I said something that genuinely implied "all religion is bad", then I'd love to know. So that I don't do it again in the future.

There are a few religions that I actually quite like. I think they have no good reason to be believed, sure. But on the whole, they're good for humanity. (Jainism, Buddhism. Two great examples)

By and large, I want to search for the truth. In doing so, I want to expose bad/untrue ideas in myself and others, and throw them away. Whether they come from a religion, or not.

 

I though you knew: I'm a psychic.

 

Was this clever sentence on purpose?

 

No this clever was not purposefully sentence.

 

I assure you I am "Dealing with it".