An Open Letter to All Young Christians - Please Convince Me.

Post #13 - "So are old christians not welcome here or do you accept all ages"

Sure. Fire away. Theists of any walk of life, really. Though other religions might be better off addressed in another thread.

 

There is a possibility that other species that our similar to our genetic code could have formed from us, I know it probably sounds stupid coming from a 12 year old, but I feel like it is possible. I don't know much about the study and idea of evolution, but what if we are looking at it totally wrong. Life is full of what ifs, but those "what ifs" can be the "truth".

 

Before I reply to the OP, I want to point out this is incorrect. Argumentation is for the purpose of mutual understanding, not for a win or a loss. Thus, hurting the other party in the argument is not going to help either side understand each other.

If this were a win/lose debate, sure, but it's not. It's arguing for the sake of improving knowledge and understanding on both sides.

 

Well, I think that those really down to earth Christians, would have a large amount of evidence to show that "God" exists.
Well, I've yet to be presented with any good evidence. So do you have some evidence for me, or know of anyone that does? If you've got ANYthing to bring to the table, I'd love to see it.

I am practically forced to believe in "God".
So do you believe in a god, or not? (You answer this later)

I don't believe in evolution, because us forming from monkeys? If we were formed from monkeys, we would be walking out of the jungle, not popping out of our mothers, like what if monkeys formed from us?
No. No no no. That's not Evolution at all, you are completely misunderstood. Humans and monkeys have a common-ancestor. Humans never gave birth to monkeys, and monkeys never gave birth to humans. We arn't "formed" from anything. It's like saying... "If Australians came from the British, where are there still Brits?".

- Do you accept that small genetic variation can happen within 1 generation? I.e. Are the biological traits of the offspring identical to it's mother/father? Or just similar?

- Do you accept that species with traits that are beneficial and aid in their survival, are more likely to survive to the age at which they reproduce?

- Do you think that, as the environment changes, different traits will become more/less beneficial to survival?

This will then gradually lead to a change in the species as a whole.

E.g. Giraffes. Just like with humans, taller giraffes tend to produce tall offspring, right? But there's some genetic variation. Some may be slightly taller, some slightly smaller. The ones that are taller, won't have to worry about food higher up the tree to graze on. They can graze anywhere on the tree. The environment in which they live, benefits taller animals to graze on more foliage. There will be plenty of food higher up that the other giraffes can't reach. These taller giraffes are more likely to survive and pass on their genetic information. Conversely, smaller giraffes will have to fight for food, and some will die off simply because they can't reach enough food. Giraffes with small necks die off over time, while the longer necks survive, the population of giraffes slowly gets taller over LONG periods of time.

Do you understand the example? If not, which parts don't you understand? Any questions welcome, don't be shy!

I don't believe in God either. I mean, if God formed the world, there would be cold, hard, facts to prove it, not a book.
Christians would probably argue that the Bible is proof, along with many other pieces of "evidence". Testimony, the fact that Christianity has survived for so long, I could go on forever. But they'd add that you're asking for too much proof, and who are you to judge God? You don't get to judge God by your own standards, he's God! He sets the line! Etc etc.

We are taught that everything is made out of Atoms, and cells, ect. So if God made the earth, he made atoms, and wheres the atom or cell that proves he made it? Of course there still the question, where did the earth come from then? Where did the first human come from? Where do we go to when we die?
Bible. Most of these are addressed in the Bible.

I honestly believe questions like that are better to be unanswered. We don't know what else is out there, in the galaxies and galaxies beyond those.
This makes me pretty sad tbh. With the wealth of knowledge that we have at our disposal, you think it's a good idea to stay ignorant about some things? What if someone said that 100yrs ago? You have no idea what amazing things we might discover, so how can you claim that it's better if we wallowed in our ignorance? We might find new planets to colonise, or we may discover more facts that hint to how we came to be.

The fact that someone in our day and age, where we've learned so much. Where you have NO idea what lies beyond our current knowledge. What wonders might be out there, both practical and useful to us, and also just for intellectual curiosity. We live on a planet where people are still killing each other over gods they can't even demonstrate exists. And you want to halt all searches for discovery beyond a certain point? That if we could find a god, or find that there are no gods, you'd rather we just didn't look?

Astonishes me. It really does.

 

I've even argued the point in bold multiple times against other Atheists (in this forum) that just want to call Theists stupid etc.

Hurting someones feeling may harm the discussion, but it isn't (on its own) an argument for or against anything.

He was arguing (before he went back and deleted a huge chunk of what he said) that I shouldn't criticise ideas for the fear of hurting peoples feelings. I mean... what?

Should you stop criticising racist behaviour, if your criticism hurts the feelings of a racist? No. Being polite can stop people from having knee-jerk reactions, sure. But this is all just a criticism of tone, rather than substance

EDIT: It's just another form of the "But I'm offended" argument. If you can even call it one. Okay, so I offended someone. Now what? Should I censor myself as to not offend people? Should everyone stop wearing Christian jewelry in public, because some people may find crucifixes/torture devices offensive? No. Wear what you like.

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Graham's_Hierarchy_of_Disagreement.svg

Call me names, I'm not too bothered. I just find it unproductive and an utter waste of time. But your argument stands and falls on its own weight, regardless of the slurs and douchey tone that you levy at me.

 

Ah. With all the deleted stuff, I didn't quite understand. My apologies.

 

I know that this is an extremely small portion of everything you replied, but I think that if we look, we won't find anything. Its almost like you lose your keys, and you can't find them, so you stop looking, and then they appear in the most obvious place. If we go and look and find everything we are looking for, we will be left without the mystery of it all. If we have everything at the tips of our fingers, we won't have anything to wonder about. Well, in a sense that at one point this world will know pretty much everything we need/want to know. Again, I'm just a kid, what do I know?

 

I think that if we look, we won't find anything.
Why do you think this? What is your justification for this belief? Because this isn't a great example...

Its almost like you lose your keys, and you can't find them, so you stop looking, and then they appear in the most obvious place.
So you still want us to find knowledge (Keys), but you think if we stop looking, we'll be more likely to find what we want?

The example is also a case of confirmation bias. We're forgetting the fact that MOST of the time, we DO find our keys. And when we do, it helps us a great deal. Allowing us to do things we wouldn't be able to do otherwise. Same goes for knowledge.

SOMEtimes (though rarely), we can't find our keys. But that doesn't mean that we've given up entirely. We can try a different approach, postpone the search til later, or decide that we can't look any further until we have additional information.

The only times you'd stop looking for your keys, is when you think....

1) They're lost, and you won't be able to find them.

2) They're not worth the effort. The time spent looking isn't worth the benefit we get by finding them.

Neither of these are applicable to knowledge. I don't think there's anything that we'll never know. And we also know that we've been satisfied by the knowledge we've had at the time, but later? We're extremely glad that we kept searching, or found it.

e.g. I'm sure people used to say that they were happy to go down the library, if they needed some information 25yrs ago. That it wasn't a big deal, and that they don't have any desire to have a better way to collect information. Then... boom. Mainstream internet.

If we go and look and find everything we are looking for, we will be left without the mystery of it all. If we have everything at the tips of our fingers, we won't have anything to wonder about.
So we should remain ignorant and uneducated about the explored wonders in our universe, because it stops the mystery of it all?

I mean... you can still have imagination and creative thought, even when you know something isn't possible.

Just because you know that... bullets fire in "straight" lines, doesn't mean that you can't imagine a place where you could curve them, or what it would be like if you could. Plus, it's even been argued that there will ALWAYS be more knowledge for us to search for. That it's infinite.

 

There is no reference to "Hell" in the bible.

 

On the contrary, there are many.

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Matthew 13:50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 23:33 You serpents, you generation of vipers, how can you escape the damnation of hell?

Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Acts 2:27 Because you will not leave my soul in hell, neither will you suffer your Holy One to see corruption.

2 Thessalonians 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power.

2 Peter 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved to judgment;

Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascends up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.

Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that worked miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Revelation 20:15 And whoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and fornicators, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

All with just a quick google search. Should I find more for you?

 

Well I'm catholic sssooo

 

I wasn't directly referring to you, I was referring to people who are religious and force their kids to be religious, sorry if you took it personally, it wasn't my intention.
Why shouldn't people have faith, to an extent it is gullibility but it makes people feel better, when a friend of mine lost his grandfather he coped with it by believing god was looking after him, so yeah I went with it, whatever makes him feel better, you don't see me pointing out his flaws in belief in a desperate time like the one he went through.
And no you don't have to be religious to have a meaning in life, but if you can devote your whole life to flipping burgers or science, you can also devote your life to being a priest.
And you're not supposed to suspend all critical thinking about "The big question" as you refer to it, but at this current point of time, it's all just conspiracy with nothing to confirm it or deny it, so speculate about it for as long as you like, you won't get your answer in this lifetime.

 

Well this was my original reply from another thread:

However, further researches has led to me re-tract on the word Gehenna, and Tatarus, as both refer to a place of punishment. But we must keep in mind, KJV scholars ended up translating each into hell, confusing the meaning further.

However, I maintain my position that the place of eternal damnation, or "Hell", does not exist. As Jesus himself was a Jew, and Hebrew he no doubt would have subscribed to the believe of Sheol, a common concept for most of Judaism in antiquity. Sheol as a place is not of damnation, but merely an afterworld, where all go regardless of their morality. If I were a Christian, I no doubt would be forced to subscribe to the same belief that Jesus had, and my religion is founded from.

However, I personally subscribe to my own set of agnosticism, where if you entrench yourself in any one belief, then you are inherently wrong, due to the infinite number of possibilities of our true origin.

 

That's a very interesting idea.
The problem here is that it contradicts with the belief in free will - you can make your own choices independently of God. I can think for myself. If I find something to be intriguing, I'll try to think through it and reach a conclusion on my own. Of course, new information or another perspective can alter or influence my conclusion, and even make me re-think it. So yes, there are extra-Biblical sources, such as myself, or the perspectives of other people that can influence it. Then again, often times I will look at a passage, disagree with it, only to find that a few years later i agree with it again. Things like that are pretty fluid if you keep an open mind to them.
Also, I'm *pretty* sure that Christians don't have to follow the Old Testament as law, so that's half of the Bible right there that doesn't really apply. (Still not sure if that's a thing or not. I keep meaning to look that up XD)

I feel like you're speaking about Creationist/Literalism.
I'm not literal about the Bible. I don't think the world was made in a week. I believe in evolution. Etc, Etc. The Bible is supposed to be metaphorical. Those who wrote the OT, for example, were Jewish. Jews, in that time of literature, were known to have used very symbolic writing styles. Ex: the number 40 basically means a long time, not necessarily exactly 40. Another example, Jesus' parables. Those sure weren't literal - they were metaphors to give advice and to teach in a way relatable to the people of that time.
If things are viewed in this way, I don't think anything contradicts with science.
Truth cannot contradict truth

AMAP? What's the big question?
Wow this is a great question! (Thanks for doing this btw, I appreciate it )
I think believing is a personal matter. For me, the main reason I was drawn back to Christianity was because of hope. That's why I was drawn to it and i have no idea where I'm going with this but I'm just gonna leave it here in case i think of what i was gonna say. Sorry XD
To answer the question: It's not gullibility. Trusting something isn't being gullible. I trust Fuzzlr and Onis to not randomly shut down Meep, even though I don't know them. I know barely anything about them but I still trust them. If you've ever donated, you trusted them with your money. Is that gullibility?
And what makes you think that no critical thinking goes into believing in a God? Because he doesn't exist and is solely based on the words of other people and the idea in your mind? Because you've never seen him? Because you've never heard him?
Well, I've never seen Russia! But I'm pretty sure it exists. I trust people that have said it exists. My friend's been there. I think it exists. I only know based on other people saying it's there... What's the difference? (this kind of corresponds to the thing about people actually seeing God or not... that's kind of a thing only they can know).

I don't know if I believe in a literal Hell or not. I think it may exist, but I don't think it's how we think of it. From what I understand, hell is not so much a burning inferno (thanks dante!) rather than an actual death. Like, just ceasing to exist. OR, an eternity without God.
The reason I don't know is because *gasp* I haven't fully read the Bible through. Most people haven't, sadly, and I'm ashamed to say I'm one of them. One of these summers I'll get a
https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/...hSCZpDuXbo3S5cMCcL0jSZc3wPzHg-FhwmPG8sRp6VtmQ
and finally be able to figure some more of this out. Rn I'm basing it off of 9 years of theology.

I believe prayer has a healing effect on whoever's praying. I think it's a way to get closer to God, not ask for what you want.
Here's a song I've always wanted to link and now find relevant:

(I'm sorry it's not garth brooks' beautiful voice ;- ; )
But yeah. Praying, I find, is for comfort and support, and to grow closer to God, not get what we want. He'll provide what we need kinda thing.

Yes, no, yes.
But see, you'd then have to define what just is. Just isn't just (hehe) what you say it is. Merciful is gentle, loving, gracious, forgiving. Is forgiveness unjust? Is not sending someone to hell because they ACTUALLY regret what they did, ACTUALLY just screwed up unjust? Is that really unfair? If I am sincerely remorseful that I slapped someone, can they not forgive me and move on, not slap me back? (On that note, Christianity is a turn-the-other-cheek religion)

By show, I'm assuming you mean a full-fledged ceremony with big lightning and thunder and stuff like that (no, I know what you mean, I'm just saying that's so dramatic).
I want to point out, with Doubting Thomas (if you're referring to the apostle):
1. Thomas was an apostle, a key to the beginning kinda thing.
2. After that incident, Jesus says: Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed [are] they that have not seen, and [yet] have believed. (implying he doesn't need to see to believe)
3. Other Thomas (St. of Aquinas) gives some of the proofs for the existence of God. Those are pretty cool, and have some valid points, you've gotta admit.
God shows himself to us in indirect ways. Of course, it's up to us to choose to ignore them or try to look for them. Another part of free will.

I used to. But most people wouldn't believe me to the point where I didn't believe myself. It was after a very traumatic event in my life, and that's what kept me alive. My WCG teacher has also talked to him (and I believe him). But you can't say either of us was or wasn't having delusions or hallucinating. It's just something you either believe or don't... It call comes down to trust. Kind of a full circle, isn't it XD

Disagree, because converts.
(also, Allah is the same God as Christians and Jews, heads up. From what I understand, slam just roughly says that Jews and Christians (people of the book) got sloppy with handing down the word of God, and messed it up, so Muhammad's direct speaking with the angel (I think it was Gabriel?) was better preserved/more direct/unmarred, so that's what they follow).

What?

Oh, that's what XD
He didn't create the rule in the first place. It was humans having free will; in such a holy place, you can't sin there. It's kinda like... umm... You don't poop on the dinner table. That's the clean place full of yumminess. You don't poop on the clean place full of yumminess. It's BAD. Temptation (to poop on the dinner table, because ynawt i guess xD) encouraged them to take the fruit and commit the first sin (and poop on the dinner table). So now everyone has that sin.
If you interpret that literally.
The creation story is kinda a way to explain the world. Not sure, but I think it was created because the Babylonians also had one and it was a kind of political thing, but also to explain religious truths and establish that concrete belief of this is what we believe etc. That part is to explain why humans have temptation and sin Things still apply from it, though - it's just more metaphorical.

Tl;dr: God didn't make the rule, not really.

This is hard to explain when my brain is fuzzy and tired. Sorry. Lots of jumbled writing.

As for Jesus, he sacrificed himself for us. As a part of God, God sacrificed himself for us too so we could be closer/have eternal life with him.
>Jesus didn't sin
>Sacrifices himself for us
>Opens gate to Heaven
It wasn't just a message; it was the new covenant, the new promise of new life.
As for the hell thing, refer to the thing above. Personally am not clear on that.

The Cross is a representation of our savior dying for us, and a reminder of what lies ahead now, because he opened those gates. It's a symbol of conquering burdens, a symbol of our new eternal life, a symbol of hope, and a symbol of our God, that he loves us that much to go through all that for us. Yes, it's an ancient torture device, but the path Jesus had to take wasn't exactly full of flowers

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 16, 2015, Original Post Date: Feb 16, 2015 ---

Ah, okay, that's what I was thinking of. Thanks Dein
(Though my view would differ slightly; if he opened the gates to heaven, those who were judged fit to go in would go in, the rest would... OH. Like Hades, with Elysium and the field. Idk if there would be a burning, firey place down there, but maybe. Again, I haven't read through all of the Bible, so I can't say I'm nearly fully educated on the topic of my own religion. Pretty sad. :/)

 

Why?

 

what do you mean why?

 

He means why are you Catholic.

 

again with this?

*sigh*
I guess this is just going to be another thread filled with hate filled catholics and atheists battling each other till one succumbs on the floor screaming in agony and pain.

There is no proof he is real, but is there any proof that he isn't?
Is it wrong that some people choose to follow what their parents and extended family tells them,
Instead of a group of whiny atheists on a minecraft forum?

Anyway.

Bye bye. probably gonna get alot of hate for this post but whatever.

 

Just gonna throw this out there.....
The creator of Evolution (Charles Darwin) on his deathbed said that Evolution was just a "theory" and that is was most likely not true.

 

Why are you a christian?