Abortion

Wrong, the right to life precedes pursuit of happiness, because without the right to life you can't have other rights.
Also couldn't you use this general moral premise to justify killing an incredibly poor person and giving their money to another incredibly poor person? After all both people would've been existing in a state "equivalent to death" so killing one to improve the living conditions for the other is completely fine under your given framework.

Suicide is the fault of whoever committed suicide because emotional and mental health is largely subjective and people are generally responsible for their own mental health.

Can you link some science to back this up? This seems to be the centrist position for people who don't wanna seem completely morally repulsive to the majority of either side, but its rarely pressed. What factors that are existent in a third trimester fetus give its life value that aren't also present in a first or second trimester fetus?

 

If a fetus (during the timeframe of abortion) is not considered a life nor anything close, why is it murder if I attack a pregnant women, resulting in the loss of that fetus?

 

I agree, however, controlling someone's freedom by using the government is a restraint on rights, which is something my country, at least does not stand for. If the rights of a woman is restrained by the life of another, then that's double the control.
You could argue that you are restraining the rights of an unborn child by allowing someone to "kill" them, but you are also restraining the rights of the woman and that's why this conversation is so sensitive, because someone is going to lose no matter what. We're essentially arguing on who loses.

Not every person who has an unplanned pregnancy will become that demoralized with themselves, but it's certainly an addition to problems. Mental health is a personal responsibility. The only person who can fix their lives is them. This doesn't mean that life treats people the same way though, and some people have to try harder to keep themselves healthy than others. Point being that I'd like people who are having issues to feel like they're in control.

I'm not basing my opinion off science, I'm basing it off what is reasonable. Third trimester is definitely enough time to discover if someone is pregnant and decide if they want a child or not.

 

Yep, totally their fault they're ugly, Totally their fault no girls like them, totally their fault they had abusive parents who yelled and beat them.

(No, none of these things apply to me, maybe the girls one but idc)
Back on the topic of abortion:

Third trimester seems reasonable.

Never had a kid so idk what its like

 

You do not have the freedom to kill someone else. In fact one of the governments only jobs is to stop people from killing each other.

You have control over your actions, you absolutely do not have control over the consequences, you absolutely should not feel in control of someone else's life.

"reasonable" is a subjective term.

Ahaha parents who beat their kids are physically hurting their children, don't be a dolt. Your first 2 examples both apply to children, so in the same way children aren't responsible for crimes they commit, they aren't responsible for their own mental health.

@PeriHeika I take it from your posts you have conceded that a fetus is in fact a life, can you confirm/deny?

 

Why is this topic an either or debate, despite nothing else as complex in the world is? Either it's a living being and it's murder or it's a bunch of cells and it's nothing.

Why can't it be both or none? Could it be it's not really a human and not murder but at the same time an abortion prevents what would be a human life and all the experiences and feelings that go with such a human life?

 

We're made up of cells, are we nothing?

No but I do understand what you're saying, I just think the correct term is "it can't think or feel emotion"

Think about it- would you smash a rock? @MeepLord27

 

Rocks will never be able to value me, so I won't value a rock. A fetus will be able to value me, so I will value it.
A fetus not being able to think or feel isn't relevant as they will in the future be able to think and feel, you aren't aloud to kill people because they are asleep.

 

Your brain stays awake when you are asleep.

 

Do I get to kill you if you are in a coma of which you have a guaranteed chance of returning?

 

But the fetus has officially done nothing, nothing at all.

Whereas im in a coma and I've done things like being a friend.

Also, the brain in a coma works, just in its lowest state of alertness.
Whereas the brain in a fetus starts working on the fourth week.

Wait, did I shoot myself in the foot?

 

The trait you suggested gave a human life value was the ability to think and feel emotions. People in comas can't think or feel emotions, therefore we can kill them.

 

You are not responsible for anyone in a coma.
It's not like you are randomly aborting some woman's kid.

A woman should have control of her own body, no? Can I not decide what happens with my body and what doesn't?

People have concern for the fetus and that is okay - Which is why it should be illegal after ~20 weeks of pregnancy when the baby's brain will develop more and feel pain and think, etc.

Realistically I dont understand why people would prefer to have 1-2 miserable people rather than one successful person who may or may not choose to have kids in the future.

(I will ALWAYS comment on the other point that making abortions illegally will only stop SAFE abortions, not abortions period. Women are going to die because of making abortions illegal if it so happens. Why is this being considered?)

 

My reasoning is mostly that a woman did not consent to having her pregnancy terminated. To her, the fetus was just as important as a live baby.

Mental health is a touchy subject. Yes, people choose to kill themselves. But do consider that most people that commit suicide don't actually want to die. The brain, when it cannot figure out a way to solve complex issues in life, might often resort to thinking about its own self destruction. This is why people can become suicidal, their brains cannot process how to cope with pain and stress to the point where they want to die. It's not that a person randomly thinks to oneself "You know, life sucks, I'm gonna kill myself".

I wouldn't really consider a fetus having a functioning brain until about the 20th week. That's the point where a fetus starts developing the very same brain waves that would determine if someone is legally dead or not.

 

If a being that doesn't have emotion or complex thought is worthless (which is the claim pizza made), then all beings with that trait we can disregard as valuable. Parents are responsible for their children, but they ought to act in that child's best interests. Literally every single argument you have been making has been in the interests of the mother, not the interests of the child, so parental responsibility can be disregarded as an argument in your favor.

You cannot guarantee the child will be miserable, and I already responded to this argument. Taking this to its logical conclusion you can justify killing super poor people and giving their stuff to other super poor people, in addition the idea that it is sometimes ok for other people to decide if your life has value is absurd.

Abortion is morally reprehensible*

People still decide to kill themselves of their own free will. The mover for their actions is internal, as opposed to external, so they are responsible for it.

 

I looked for a thread talking about abortion, but the last reply was a year ago, so I didn't bump it and im creating this new thread

I don't expect this thread to get any views, cause this forum is kinda dead, so I'm not gonna go in depth in an argument unless someone is actually gonna take place in the debate.

Post your beliefs below. Pro-life or Pro-choice?


edit: grammar because I can't spell

 

Stop killing kids

 

very constructive post, I thank you for your time.

 

Pro-choice. Politics shouldn't have any religion. Let the woman choose what to do with her body. I think the argument is really about when an abortion should be legal. I haven't done enough research to know when the baby becomes a baby.

 

Stages Of Pregnancy & Fetal Development | Cleveland Clinic