Abortion

So lets kill all the tiny organisms because I couldn't be bothered to be responsible.

 

We are all sitting here talking about who should or should not get an abortion. Do you know who doesn't get to vote on if abortion should be legal or not? Do you know who doesn't get to vote if they are put up for adoption or aborted or even kept in a "not so wealthy" home? That fetus (BABY) that was aborted.

 

Well there technically needs to be proof to convict someone yet there are thousands of innocent people currently rotting away in the prison system, with a significant portion of those being on death row.

 

Idk, don't give them any reason to think you raped someone? Anyway, I do not agree with abortion and you as a "Christian" should disapprove as well.

 

He did

 

Allowing someone to have an abortion because "they can't afford it" or "don't want to parent" isn't going against abortion.

 

I never said that; I was merely pointing out holes in your logic. I agree with your conclusion, that abortion is immoral and shouldn't be practiced, but that doesn't mean that I must agree with how you both defend and derive your conclusion.

Where did I say that abortion was okay because "they can't afford it" or "didn't want to parent?" Are you misquoting me or something? Go ahead, look above in the thread--I don't think I ever said something like that.

Edit: You seem to have just ignored the very next sentence, which is:

I mean, it [the legit reasons for wanting an abortion] doesn't make abortion any less wrong IMO,

The only reason I said what I said is because you said this, which is extremely insensitive and a misrepresentation of the thought process that actually happens when you're getting an abortion:

Besides, I said this above:

 

I misunderstood what you had said. For that I do apologize. That being said, how am I being insensitive!?
@Muunkee said: "Women should be allowed to have an abortion because..."
(these are a few reasons she gave)
1.) It's hard to get a date when pregnant.
2.) You get fat
3.) you get stretch marks
4.) You give up certain things for 9 months (im assuming alcohol? weed?)
I was simply saying in reply to Muunkee that if you get an abortion because of one of these reasons, you are a sad excuse of a human being.

 

Oh, my bad, sorry--I didn't see the original post you were responding to.

 

No worries, sometimes things can be confusing on a debate forum.

 

I dunno, there's a lot of false rape accusations floating around out there. Rape is a really tricky thing since it's hard to determine whether or not consent was actually given.

Like take the case of my uncle which I mentioned above. He clearly didn't do anything wrong, yet he was interrogated by the police, and an investigation was launched. I don't know how close he was to being convicted of rape, but it was definitely closer than it should have been.

I don't mean to sound insensitive to rape victims at all, but there are definitely a lot of incidences of false rape accusations out there, and all it takes to "give them any reason to think you raped someone" is an accusation, whether it's true or false.


Like, take this case. Those guys were really, really, really close to being convicted falsely. It would be a real shame if we castrated/killed someone for something they never did.

 

I understand some rape cases are false. Some people accused innocent people for some outrageous reason. It sucks that people like your uncle have to go through that. Meeplord im assuming got the "castrate and kill" rapist from a great, smart guy named Ben Shapiro. I agree but I do see what you mean by fake rape accusations.

 

Okay, thank you for clarifying.

Basing your opinions or arguments on what will make us "left-leaners" hate you is not a good thing to do. In a debate section like this, it's good to stand up for what you actually believe.

Anyway, I doubt that most people here hate you just because you disagree with them. For what it's worth, while I cannot speak for the other "left-leaners" here or liberal people at large, I will say that I view often have more respect for logically consistent beliefs that I disagree with than for beliefs that I partially agree with that aren't logically consistent. In regards to this topic, if you believe that abortion is murder, I think that the logically consistent belief is that abortion is therefore wrong even in the case of rape.

Also, I think that you misunderstood what I meant by "trauma." Rape can and usually does lead to very deep and very significant psychological harm, but this is precisely what I meant when I said "trauma." I wasn't viewing the effects of rape as less significant than they are.

Why do you think that abortion is murder before or even after the heartbeat occurs? Until sentience develops, I don't see what makes the fetus a living being rather than just living cells.

Ben Shapiro is definitely educated and he is pretty rational overall; I have some respect for him since he stands up for what he believes and seems to be pretty rational and consistent about it. I'm not familiar with his stances on every topic and he seems to cover a lot of political topics that I'm not that interested in (certain things involving the news/media, economics, and law), but I think that it's likely that he has some very good opinions on some of these things. I do, however, disagree with him a lot on philosophical matters, like religion and ethics/morality. I think that he's a good politician, but not a particularly good philosopher.

 

it's not killing a child. technically the baby isn't fully grown when in that stage (correct me if I am wrong). But it is most definitely the mother's choice, she chooses what to do, she's carrying the child anywho.

 

Technically?! Thats your best?
Regardless of wether its "technically" a child, its still a being, and killing it because your irresponsible is wrong.

 

I think what he's trying to say is that it's irresponsible and immoral for a woman to choose to have sex and then get an abortion. If a woman was raped, there was no choice, so an abortion is morally justifiable.

 

A question. If I punch a pregnant women who has been pregnant 15 weeks in the stomach, causing her to miscarry, should I charged be a count of murder?

 

The woman didn't necessarily choose to get pregnant in either case, but sure, in cases that aren't rape, the huge difference is that she chose to have sex. Either way, however, if a child is created, how is the fact that the woman didn't choose to have sex relevant to if she can murder? I don't think that murder is justified just so that one can escape from a traumatic situation. If the woman has the child, one life is saved at the expense of further harm that does not cause death, whereas if the woman does not have the child, she is saved from harm at the expense of murdering the baby. I think that the best outcome is saving both lives (if they were to both be correctly considered lives).

I will say that perhaps it was a bit rash for me to say that the logically consistent belief in viewing abortion as murder is to be against it in scenarios of rape. I still think that being against it in scenarios of rape is at least a consistent stance, though I think I can see how others can be consistent as well. One could say that not permitting abortion in the case of rape would cause society a lot of harm by making women have to live in a lot more fear of rape than they already have to. Perhaps there is a very consistent way to base it solely on the fact that it wasn't a choice that the woman made that caused her to be in the situation. I don't know.

No, but you should be charged with assault and for the damage that you caused. Assuming that the woman was trying to have a child, you still took the right for the woman to have that child away from her.

I'm not sure what the current legal punishment would be for something like this and I don't know exactly how we should define the legal punishment for this, but there should absolutely be a punishment, just not for murder. Not only is this assault, it's also taking away the woman's right to have the child and doing this can cause extreme harm to her and possibly her family as well, so I definitely don't believe that someone should be able to get away with this.

 

Currently it's murder.
Unborn Victims of Violence Act - Wikipedia

 

That's interesting.

I don't think that it should be labeled as that and I definitely think that it is hypocritical for that to be considered murder if abortion itself isn't. I do, however, think that assaulting someone and causing a miscarriage should surely be punished.