A short rant: Anti-Vaccine People

I do appreciate the way you replied to my last post. Yes this is not an easy topic to write about. I have a few concerns about vaccines and I am not that eloquent in putting down into text. You asked for the best reason against vaccines. I believe this would be the top.



Source -
US Supreme Court Gives Total Liability Shield to Big Drug Companies

"A U.S. Supreme Court decision has just given drug companies total liability protection for injuries and deaths caused by government mandated vaccines. The National Vaccine Information Center (NVIC) called the decision a "betrayal" of the American consumer." -quote

"furthermore, the decision removes all financial incentive for multi-national drug companies to make vaccines as safe as they can be." -quote

This was needed because companies did not want to pay for costs of developing new vaccines. There is no money in that. Maybe its more profitable with the RSSI's.

This troubles me. I believe it should trouble everyone. I see this precedence creeping up in all aspects of global trade. Global concerns are always over ruling local ones. Does this make things clear enough about my reservations.

Also if you are interested I been watching this and if you really wish to sit and watch a 53 min video, it explains some other aspects related to my previous mention. I don't see them bestowing the same amount of care for us as human beings as their profits.

Oh I forgot to put the link and here it is now.

 

I think the major difference is the type of vaccination. A flu shot isn't really a vaccination, it's a guess at best and it's not nearly as important as vaccinations against major diseases we've all but wiped out. Polio, measles, mumps, etc. When one chooses not to become vaccination for the major illnesses, it puts a population at risk that otherwise would not be.

That being said, the flu shot is optional and it's never been discussed on whether one should mandate people to get a flu shot. I've never gotten one, my kids don't get one. It's the flu, you get over it. However, the solution to your concerns is not to simply not take vaccinations, it's to politically group and force your legislature to move towards removing immunity for vaccine manufacturers, if that is what you wish.

I really dislike these remarks (from both sides) because it dismisses an entire group. Things are not left / right, there are no liberal masters, there are no conservative masters. In fact, when I read remarks like this (usually a reddit thread), it casts the rest of their argument into doubt. Talking points like this, or using SJW or any other current buzzword insult leads me to think the rest of the argument is regurgitated talking points found on Fox, MSNBC, or other news outlets. -- I'd avoid using those type of statements to be taken seriously.

That being said, the facts are: Vaccinations prevent disease, and they do not cause autism. People may have side effects, even horrible ones, but that risk is outweighed by the risk of major diseases being prevented by the lack vaccinations for no good reason.

 

This doesn't really have anything to do with vaccinations, but about sacrificing those close to you for the greater good:

Imagine you are the worker who lifts up train tracks so that boats can pass underneath. The bridge is up (like this: / \). Your son gets his foot caught in the train tracks on the left side of the bridge, but a train is coming from the right side very fast. If you go to save your son, you will not have enough time to lower the bridge, therefore the train will fall off the tracks and land in the water, resulting in the death of about 600 people. If you lower the bridge and leave your son, the train and the 600 people on it will be safe, but your son will be dead.

Which do you choose?

 

This is essentially the Trolley problem, which is more fitting. In this specific scenario the answer is easy - I would always save my child.

 

Herd immunity you moron.
A child who has had cancer doesn't necessarily have an immune system that can deal with vaccinations or an immune system at all, or a child who is allergic to certain ingrediests . They can't have the vaccination and therefore rely on the rest of the human race to be decent people and get vaccinated so the disease can't spread to them and kill them.

The "doctor", if you can even call him that had his medical license revoked yet people like you still believe the utter crap he spewed. What people don't understand also is that it's not all vaccines that were linked it was literally one vaccine, the MMR (Measles, Mumps and Rubella) vaccine a vaccine which I have been given and surprise surprise I nor anyone I know hasn't developed autism due to this jab. To be completely honest even if it was directly linked to autism and there was a small chance I could develop autism and it was as prolific a killer as it has been I would take it, without a moments hesitation I would be vaccinated. Personally, I prefer autism to death...

A note to all anti-vaccers:

In the 1900's 300 million people died from small pox a horrific disease which has now been eradicated thanks to vaccination, a disease which covers you in horrific rashes cripples your immune system and leaves you in crippling agony and then leads to your death. It has killed more people than more than 3 times the amount of people killed in World War 1 and World War 2 combined. Another disease that is on its way out is polio, polio causes paralysis in the body to a point where you can't breath.

This is an Iron Lung. It's the only thing keeping this man alive.

This is him today. He has spent his entire life in this thing and if for one minute he left it he would die. His name is Paul Alexander, an American citizen who at the age of 6 caught polio and for 62 years he has been paralysed. Thanks to aggressive vaccination the disease is almost gone, completely wiped out from the UK, US, Australia and other countries but if this dumb movement continues to grow it could come back. Your children or even you could have to spend your life (if you survive that is) in one of these machines. A small jab in the arm or paralysis? Tough choice.

I live in a country were certain vaccinations are compulsory and those vaccines are free, and if you don't let your child be vaccinated then your child can be removed from you due to neglect. I thank god that I live in a country were that is the case not only for my benefit but for the benefit of other people whether they are too ill or allergic because I am not completely selfish and I care about the health of others. If you don't want a vaccine because "I shouldn't have to" and "It's my choice" you are a deplorable human being and should be ashamed.

/rantend

 

I didn't intend to heat up the discussion. It's just vaccines guys. No need to be immature and call people morons.

I just don't like the disrespect that everyone has here. Totally against the debate rules.

Chill down please.

 

Let me give you some perspective on why people would be apprehensive about a mandatory vaccination regulation. Corporations do not exist to help people, they do not exist to make the world a better place, nor do they exist to create art. They exist to generate wealth, that is their sole purpose in this world, and they accomplish this with great efficiency. What they do not do well is regulate themselves, as we can see by the multitude of reports about corporations choosing profit over even common decency. We often see these reports talk about people who were harmed, or killed because of the shortfall of a corporation, and then we see corporations try their best to weasel out of any real change, or acceptance of responsibility.

Having mandatory vaccination does not take into the account that pharmacutical corporations have in the past used vaccinations that greatly harmed people, it's side affects were great risky and damaging. If we forced vaccinations on the population, we will encounter a scenario where a corporation, made to generate wealth, puts out a sub-par chemical compound / medicine, or a risky vaccination for some future illness that may cause significant damage.

While I support vaccination in general I do not support mandatory injections of any kind for any reason. In our history, we do not have much success with forced medical procedures of any kind and I fail to see what has changed this track record overall.

On another note, while I sway fairly liberal myself, this recent tendency of outright insulting those disagree with you without taking the time to hear their disagreements is something that really leaves a bad taste in my mouth. It degrades the argument as a whole and it is no better than those on the right that do the same thing - It's just sides on the same coin. They may be an idiot, but they are certainly not deplorable, unless you view those who have differing opinions than you as deplorable.

 

@Splendy --
"Herd immunity you moron."

"...yet people like you still believe the utter crap he spewed."

"If this dumb movement continues to grow..."

"...because I am not completely selfish and I care about the health of others."

"If... you are a deplorable human being and should be ashamed."

This is so far out of line, especially for a children's forum. Please don't speak to others like that.
You can be upset without taking the low-road.

 

Deinen pretty much nailed it. I agree 100% Blind trust into corporations is a problem equal to or even greater than people not trusting them at all. Profit is not an evil Idea, companies need to make money. What the other side fails to understand is the companies in order to profit also need to use the value of an individual to calculate if a pill should be researched.
In a nut shell they don't see the value of a life until the profit justifies the creation of the meds. What does that tell you? Does that instill faith? No one likes to talk about that. It's never brought up.

GM corporation knew that there was a fault in the key ignition system wiring. They didn't just get together and said this can hurt or even cause death to hundreds of thousands of people and we should recall all the vehicles because it the right thing to do and incur millions in expenses.
NO they calculated the pros and cons of that equation with the chance of litigation that can be in cured by damages. The value of a life is represented by the amount they will be sued. Now my question I would like to ask is this.
What is the value of an individuals life, if the government gave immunity from prosecution to GM? Could someone tell me a dollar value?

I know it is dificult to answer because no one feels comfortable trying to figure that out. However in the case of triage that value is equated according to supplies and in this case the supply of money is limited and the value of an individual is unlimited or is it. These are cold facts that everyone conveniently ignores. Yes they sit around board meeting discussing the values of individuals when the goal is profit. This is just a fact of life.

Stark contrast to the philosophy of government where everyone is equal in the eyes of the law right? or is that changing nowadays?

 

Are you sure that's the flu, man? Also that could just be a weird immune system thing and/or wherever you were vaccinated from didn't know what they were doing
That's weird though

 

Er, yes. It's the flu. It was just different strains - you know how fast they mutate. The flu shot doesn't cover all varieties of the flu - my brother was one of the first cases of swine flu. We're just unnnnnnlucky.

I don't see the issue with it. It's the way our society works. To make a profit, you need a product that works. If the product does not work, people don't buy it, you lose rep, etc. and you go out of business. That's the incentive.

Does GM make vaccines?
I know where you're tying to go with this, but the GM thing is unrelated. That's an example of a corporation being bad. That doesn't mean that all businesses are... nor that smaller, more targeted businesses can afford that anyway.

I don't understand what you mean.

 

Thanks for the lengthy post. Always great to see a willingness to talk about these issues.

I would like to refer you to my previous post though. I asked 3 quick questions, and I have yet had an answer for each one. Most importantly, 'What would change your mind?'.

Can you also explain how you go from... "This SC decision troubles me" to "I don't think we should using vaccines"? I can sympathize with the former, but not yet with the latter. Can you help me out?

There also seems to be a lack of citations with sources, with the post above. Just for future reference, it'd be nice if we had studies, data, sources, etc.

 

I apologise, I was out of order, this certain topic seems to irate me specifically I hope @Natsu can accept my apology.


(Stealing your style of responding to quotes as it seems more efficient)

@Deinen

Corporations do not exist to help people, they do not exist to make the world a better place, nor do they exist to create art. They exist to generate wealth, that is their sole purpose in this world, and they accomplish this with great efficiency.

Don't get me wrong I don't believe corporations have any other intentions but to make money however they're selling a product and people don't tend to buy a product with no worth. It's in their best interest to sell something that works as the government isn't going to buy something that doesn't work, they'd be wasting money.


Having mandatory vaccination does not take into the account that pharmacutical corporations have in the past used vaccinations that greatly harmed people, it's side affects were great risky and damaging. If we forced vaccinations on the population, we will encounter a scenario where a corporation, made to generate wealth, puts out a sub-par chemical compound / medicine, or a risky vaccination for some future illness that may cause significant damage.

I'm not sure you understand, vaccinations that are compulsory are vaccinations which have been tested through generations with millions of pounds making sure they're safe for the general population. They're not just putting out compulsory vaccinations willy nilly the government is using vaccinations with a very high success rate to stop the spread of deadly diseases. Concerning the "sub-par chemical compound" statement I refer you to my response above.

In our history, we do not have much success with forced medical procedures of any kind and I fail to see what has changed this track record overall.

I disagree, as I have previously stated smallpox a disease which has killed upwards of 200 million and is now an extinct disease the vaccination for which was mandatory in the UK, I would consider that a large success.

This recent tendency of outright insulting those disagree with you without taking the time to hear their disagreements is something that really leaves a bad taste in my mouth

I agree, I was out of order once again I apologise to Natsu.

unless you view those who have differing opinions than you as deplorable.

I deem people who value their own slight discomfort over the lives of others deplorable.

 

Personal anecdote but I never actually realized anti-vaccination people were real. I thought it was satirical for the most part and all of the outlash at the "movement" was publicity to get parents to vaccinate their kids. There are so few publicized events I could find on herd immunization failing.

I don't think people realize how many research hours go into making vaccinations more effective or the process of eradicating diseases from this planet. Those hours are factored into the cost of the vaccinations as well.
A quick search of cost-effectiveness of vaccines:

The paper is over 10 years old, and research models have only improved this. I don't know why it's so hard to read or find documented articles that have been checked and published by the scientific community. Big Pharma isn't taking control of vaccination costs to screw over families of children. It saves the country money in the long run to keep citizens healthy and out of the hospital, and governments are happy to pay for this.
Another paper to read: Benefits And Costs Of Immunizing Children Against Influenza At School: An Economic Analysis Based On A Large-Cluster Controlled Clinical Trial

I'm glad there are many journals published that are free that anybody in the world can read and educate themselves on topics such as this.


Not going to cite this cause I feel like making up numbers now, but the risk:reward is like 1:9000000 for vaccinations.
Mumps outbreak in a highly vaccinated school population. Evidence for large-scale vaccination... - Abstract - Europe PMC is the largest outbreak I could find of vaccination failure affecting a large population, and this was 26 years ago (ok, I didn't try very hard on this one. It's 7:20 AM).

 

That's not what I said...

Viruses evolve too... Kind of...

Is it? I don't see why.

I'd have to go dig up the article I read (a long, long time ago), but I think it had something to do with vaccines circumventing the normal method for infection, and instead basically shocking the body, which has various ill effects.
That's why I said it was hypothesized but not proven or demonstrated.

prove
pro͞ov/
verb
past participle: proven

1. 1.
   demonstrate the truth or existence of (something) by evidence or argument.
   "the concept is difficult to prove"

Yes it can.

 

And?

I never said viruses don't evolve? My point is that antibiotic resistance is only really relevant to bacteria, since antibiotics aren't used to treat viral infections.

could you? Memory is a funny thing sometimes.

I posted above regarding antibiotic-resistant bacteria.

I won't bother arguing this point, since it's not really relevant to the discussion...

 

I was just point out that viruses also evolve, in order to go around vaccines, and this discussion is about vaccines.

I don't think I still have it (scientific American or somesuch) I'll take a look on the interwebs to see if I can find an online version

No I was wondering why it was beyond the scope of this discussion

You argued it in the first place...

 

Im always afriad that the people will not have made it well and get me sick with it. Its happened to me btw. I don't mind needles just the idea of an air bubble going into my blood streem

 

air bubble

what

anyways the needle is fine its just gross to feel the fluid go like whoosh through ur veins

 

If they get air in the needle then start injecting you you will get an air bubble. People have died from it