Gay Rights

Same here!

 

I never said you can't believe in God? Where did I say that? You can have your own beliefs if you want to. I never said anything about how you couldn't.

 

heehheheheehehhe

 

I think I've shared my opinion enough on this topic. Unless anyone has further questions / things to discuss with me on this thread, I think i'll leave for now and go back to posting about MeepCraft.

 

Im just waiting for steam to update but thanks for making it an enjoyable waiting time

 

"I do not agree with women or women's rights! It's wrong! Women should be subservient to men. It says so in the Bible "

"I do not agree with those that oppose slavery. They're wrong! Slaves should obey their masters, and we should enslave people from the countries around us. It says so in the Bible "

"I do not agree with those that oppose mass genocide and infanticide. The entire world deserved to be drowned to pacify the whims of my god! It says so in the Bible "

"I do not agree with Freedom of Speech. People that mock or laugh at one another deserve to be mauled to death by bears! It says so in the Bible "

*etc etc*.

 

To answer your first question, I said I was not forcing my opinion upon you because now days, many people are easily offended at the slightest provocation and will use any cheap shot at their disposal to try to make you shut up such as saying that you are sexist, racist, misogynist, etc. even if the discussion you are talking about has nothing to do with any of the things they accuse you of.

To answer your second question, I came to this thread in particular to share my personal opinion on homosexual rights for others to see without becoming stuck in a quagmire argument that will get us nowhere because at the end of the day lets be honest, neither side will have drastic changes to our opinions. The human race as a whole is very stubborn and obstinate. I admit myself that I am highly stubborn with my views and opinions too.

To answer this question, I can speak personally face to face with my cousin. The reason I would prefer not to discuss my thoughts in more detail is because with people on this forum and elsewhere on the internet, I can not speak face to face so it is much harder to interpret what people are saying when it is in type. Again I would like to direct you to where I mentioned that we are all quite stubborn. (end of response #2)

Please do not refer to me as having homophobia (the irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against homosexuality or homosexuals.) because as I stated before, I am for equal rights for all people no matter their sexuality. To reiterate the point where I do have a small problem, I simply do not approve of certain already mentioned points due to my religious and moral beliefs. If you can not accept that people are allowed to believe in God and have their own thoughts on what they believe is moral and not, then I think that you just help reinforce the fact that all of us are stubborn and obstinate people who will not have a revelation or dramatic shift in our personal ideology from a Minecraft server forum. As I have said before, I am very stubborn and obstinate so I will not change tonight and I will bet dollars to donuts that you will not change at all tonight either. Because of this, I am walking away from this useless discussion.

 

@_Gimble_1. -- To answer your first question, I said I was not forcing my opinion upon you because now days, many people are easily offended at the slightest provocation and will use any cheap shot at their disposal to try to make you shut up such as saying that you are sexist, racist, misogynist, etc. even if the discussion you are talking about has nothing to do with any of the things they accuse you of.

While I agree that insulting labels like this are thrown around too readily nowadays, you are technically a 'homophobe'. Now, I don't want to make you shut up due to that label, clearly. Because all I've been trying to do for ages, is open this conversation up to make it productive and worthwhile.

To answer your second question, I came to this thread in particular to share my personal opinion on homosexual rights for others to see without becoming stuck in a quagmire argument that will get us nowhere

It gets nowhere, when you come into the thread, espouse your beliefs, and then refuse to talk about it. If you have no intention to talk about this issue with others, I don't think you should have posted to begin with. By your own admission, you're here to briefly state your opinion without offering any serious substance, and then leave before we can make progress and get to the meat of why we disagree.

because at the end of the day lets be honest, neither side will have drastic changes to our opinions.

Not with an attitude like that. Is this how you approach all disagreements? Do you not want to have your mind changed, if you're wrong?

Constantly, I find myself pleading to reason through disagreements with one another. To converge on what's "right", together. To figure it out. And it seems, with increasing frequency, that religious people do not want to do this. That serious discussion is something they want to avoid. That they arn't concerned with giving outside ideas consideration and having their mind changed. It worries me. Because I don't want to be wrong for a second more than I have to be. And if you have the silver bullet for being 'anti- gay sex', I want to hear it. Genuinely. I only wish that this feeling was more widespread. Here, included.

The human race as a whole is very stubborn and obstinate. I admit myself that I am highly stubborn with my views and opinions too.

Then why post in 'debates'? While brutally honest, and admirable for that fact alone, isn't it something that we should work on? Shouldn't we try to make ourselves less stubborn, by exposing ourselves to differing opinions and engaging in challenging conversations about what we believe?

To answer this question, I can speak personally face to face with my cousin. The reason I would prefer not to discuss my thoughts in more detail is because with people on this forum and elsewhere on the internet, I can not speak face to face so it is much harder to interpret what people are saying when it is in type. Again I would like to direct you to where I mentioned that we are all quite stubborn. (end of response #2)

Well, that only forces my hand. What about a google hangout?

Please do not refer to me as having homophobia (the irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against homosexuality or homosexuals.) because as I stated before, I am for equal rights for all people no matter their sexuality.

But you arn't, by your own admission. You don't care if heterosexual couples want to have adult consensual sex in the privacy of their own home. You *DO* care, if it's regarding homosexuals. You think heterosexual sex is moral. You *DON'T* think homosexual sex, is. The reasons you've given thus far? They... arn't even reasons. All you've done is describe where you stand. And when pressed, you refuse to give your reasoning. This is by definition, unreasonable. Similarly, irrational. Which is why I used that label.

To reiterate the point where I do have a small problem, I simply do not approve of certain already mentioned points due to my religious and moral beliefs.

But you arn't explaining anything! You keep saying this, as if you've explained something. As if you're doing as I've asked of you. You arn't. You just keep telling us what your position is.

Imagine if I told you that I hated black people. That I "simply do not approve of them, due to my religious and moral beliefs". Have I explained anything, at all, bar where I stand? No. You are in the same boat, in terms of rationale.

If you can not accept that people are allowed to believe in God and have their own thoughts on what they believe is moral and not,

This is a little dirty. You're putting words into my mouth. You are free to believe as you wish.

But, this is not a discussion about whether you're "allowed" to believe in a god. This is one about homosexuality, and whether your beliefs (that homosexuality is wrong) stand up to scrutiny. When you don't explain your beliefs, don't give reasons, and fail to construct any arguments whatsoever? You should not be posting in this section of the forum. Regardless of the subject matter.

then I think that you just help reinforce the fact that all of us are stubborn and obstinate people who will not have a revelation or dramatic shift in our personal ideology from a Minecraft server forum.

I am stubbornly pro-reason. I am stubbornly for productive conversations, and stubborn oppose your current behaviour. You arn't giving reasons, you arn't posting arguments, you don't have the desire to have a conversation.

I refuse to be tarnished as 'part of the stubbornness problem' for demanding that you contribute something to the discussion, other than:

"Please, let's all be polite. This is just my opinion, please take no offense. These are my personal beliefs. Homosexuality is wrong. Everyone is entitled to disagree with me if they wish, though I have no interest in talking about that. Goodbye."

That's all you seem to do, on every topic. "Please be nice. I think THIS. I have the right the think this. Goodbye.". Please, contribute something that we can sink our teeth into.

As I have said before, I am very stubborn and obstinate so I will not change tonight and I will bet dollars to donuts that you will not change at all tonight either.

This is awful, frankly. Now you're claiming to have some sort of ESP. That... contrary to what I've just told you about my beliefs, I'm lying to you. Implying that I'm not open to having my mind changed.

I AM. I'm just waiting for you to give me a reason to do so, other than to spend 90% of every post telling us how much you want us to accept our differences and to leave it at that. Hell no.

Speak for yourself. If you're openly declaring yourself as closed-minded, then I should just block you now (as should anyone else that desires productive conversations).

Because of this, I am walking away from this useless discussion.

Again? In the time it's taken to cry-foul about how you don't want your ideas to be criticised, you could have explained why you believe homosexuality is immoral. Not to mention, how rude it is to get the last word in, and then ignore all replies.

 

No, a marriage is when a father sells off his daughter for property and she has to do whatever her husband says. Haven't you read the Bible?

Also, marriage predates the Bible and Christianity. Just going to point that out.

--- Double Post Merged, Mar 31, 2016, Original Post Date: Mar 31, 2016 ---

N-no. I don't think you understand how any of this works. Nobody becomes anything out of the blue. They hide it until they see a reason to be open about it.

--- Double Post Merged, Mar 31, 2016 ---

And we don't base our laws off religion. And thank God (hehe) we don't. Murder is illegal because we as humans understand that to survive, we must be there for one another. Without the Bible, would murder still be wrong? Is murder wrong because it's wrong, or is murder wrong because you are told it's wrong? Hint: You don't need to be told murder is wrong to understand it's wrong.

If we based our laws off of religion, we'd be, well, a theocracy. If God's message is so vitally important, why wasn't it delivered in a way for everyone to understand?

 

Would like to clarify on the divorce thing from the Church's stance (not... totally sure on the Bible's?): Divorce is wrong. However, in extreme circumstances such as abuse, adultery, etc. etc., an annulment can be requested and the marriage declared invalid.

Ngl, I didn't read much of the rest. But I would like to point out that there is not really a silver bullet for anything - if people are going to deny logic, or even if they are simply on different moral planes, then there is a disjunction between the real matter that they are speaking about, kind of the same reason you can never totally convince someone that there is or is not a God simply by presenting facts, opinions, and personal experiences. It's often the same reason you and I butt heads constantly; you speak on a plane of reason and logic alone, which I find to be distasteful, because that is not my reality.
And please don't say that religious people aren't open to having their mind changed without mentioning that non-religious people aren't either. People are people. Some will be, most won't be. That's the way people are

 

@Fangdragon1998 -- Would like to clarify on the divorce thing from the Church's stance (not... totally sure on the Bible's?): Divorce is wrong. However, in extreme circumstances such as abuse, adultery, etc. etc., an annulment can be requested and the marriage declared invalid.

Can you reply to the "Women having their hair short" too? I find it a tad odd that you'd only comment on 1 of the 2 issues that @chirp1234 was talking about.

Why don't we see the number of Christians opposing/rallying against Divorce like we do with gay-marriage? What about the Biblically supported positions of being Pro-Slavery, or being for the subjugation of women?

But I would like to point out that there is not really a silver bullet for anything - if people are going to deny logic, or even if they are simply on different moral planes, then there is a disjunction between the real matter that they are speaking about, kind of the same reason you can never totally convince someone that there is or is not a God simply by presenting facts, opinions, and personal experiences.

That is one hell of a run-on sentence.

But I would like to point out that there is not really a silver bullet for anything - if people are going to deny logic, or even if they are simply on different moral planes,

I should be more clear. A 'Silver Bullet' against bad ideas. Fossil Records, Carbon-dating, Astronomy, and the DNA family tree combine to form the ultimate defeater in the case for a 'Young Earth' (One that is around ~6000yo). Whether this will be enough to convince someone that's been indoctrinated into their religious beliefs since they were a child? That's another story. A 'Silver Bullet' is an instant burst of information that destroys bad arguments.

[This [people denying logic and being on different moral planes] is] kind of the same reason you can never totally convince someone that there is or is not a God simply by presenting facts, opinions, and personal experiences.

Woahhh nelly. So much to tackle here. Let's parse this beauty out, to deduce your beliefs. If I'm not mistaken:

1) You believe that one cannot be "totally convinced" whether or not a God exists by presenting facts. (+ opinions and personal experiences)

> Atheists don't accept the claim that a god exists, because of illogical tendencies, and that they're on a [?]different moral plane[?].

>There is also the implication is that there is something greater than just "Facts" and evidence.

>That no matter how clear the evidence? A Theist can also never be "totally" convinced that a god exists. Even if they have the most rock solid of evidence in front of them.

All of these seem blatantly untrue. Could you help a brother out here?

2) You believe that there are facts that can be presented, to make a case for the existence of a god.

I'm all ears. Let's hear them!

It's often the same reason you and I butt heads constantly; you speak on a plane of reason and logic alone, which I find to be distasteful, because that is not my reality.

I'm sorry? What does this mean?

Honestly, you might as well have just said: "When you speak about Mathematics, you only speak on a plane of numbers and equations. Which I find distasteful, because that is not my reality". This is, pretty much, what you sound like to me.

Can you please explain what you mean by:

A) 'Logic and reason not being the plane on which you operate' -- (Which might explain the trouble we're having here)

B) "Your reality". What do you mean by that? Because you're using 'Reality' in a way that I've not heard it used before. Isn't there just 'Reality'? If something is true, it's true for both of us, right?

And please don't say that religious people aren't open to having their mind changed without mentioning that non-religious people aren't either. People are people. Some will be, most won't be. That's the way people are

But the problem is systemic among those that happen to be religious. My claim was never, "Religious people are the only ones that are closed minded". Let me clear my throat here.

On religion, Atheists in the majority are the ones that are willing to have productive conversations. Asking and receiving tough questions, and willing to have their minds changed. Are there Theists who do the same? Sure, but there are a rare breed.

In this forum specifically, I've found it borderline impossible to have a conversation about 'What you believe', with Christians. Atheists on the other hand, can't keep their mouths shut. While it could be argued that they're typically more brash and impolite, they don't usually shy away from conversation and debate. This translates into issues outside of religion also.

 

debathiest u r best person on forums

 

tbh you are actually the most idiotic person i've had the mispleasure of knowing

 

tbh the word is displeasure not mispleasure and you sound like George Bush
"They have misunderestimated me" -George Bush
"Rarely is the question asked: is our children learning?" -George Bush
"Families is where our nation finds hope, where our wings take dream" -George Bush

 

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

I wasn't debating anything but the sentence that chirp said. Don't over-analyze, and don't think that I take the Bible literally. Because, as I've said before and which you should know by now, I don't.
I don't know why you found it odd. It was just a statement I felt needed clarification on...

You're right. Let me fix it.
But I would like to point out that there is not really a silver bullet for anything - if people are going to deny logic, or even if they are simply on different moral planes, then there is a disjunction between the real matter that they are speaking about... kind of the same reason you can never totally convince someone that there is or is not a God simply by presenting facts, opinions, and personal experiences.
or
But I would like to point out that there is not really a silver bullet for anything - if people are going to deny logic, or even if they are simply on different moral planes, then there is a disjunction between the real matter that they are speaking about - find of the same reason you can never totally convince someone that there is or is not a God simply by presenting facts, opinions, and personal experiences.
or perhaps
But I would like to point out that there is not really a silver bullet for anything - if people are going to deny logic, or even if they are simply on different moral planes, then there is a disjunction between the real matter that they are speaking about: kind of the same reason you can never totally convince someone that there is or is not a God simply by presenting facts, opinions, and personal experiences.
or if you really want to break it up
But I would like to point out that there is not really a silver bullet for anything - if people are going to deny logic, or even if they are simply on different moral planes, then there is a disjunction between the real matter that they are speaking about. It's kind of the same reason you can never totally convince someone that there is or is not a God simply by presenting facts, opinions, and personal experiences.

Don't correct my grammar, especially if it's one comma splice. I do take pride in my knowledge of the subject. After all, I wrote an entire essay in one sentence that was grammatically correct. ^-^

You are absolutely misinterpreting everything I say. Congratulations.
Now listen.

If you're going to nitpick through every word I say to find an argument, be my guest. But pardon me if I don't respond like I care, because I don't. You're over-analyzing what I'm saying.
Literally, this is what I mean, since I guess I have to make it glaringly plain for you:
People exist with different experiences, thoughts, feelings, etcetc than you, right?
These people don't agree with you on many subjects, right?
That's because they have different views on the matter, yes?
For some, this is because they deny obvious evidence in front of them.
For others, this is because they deny what seems to be obvious to you, but is obviously wrong to them. I.E. matters of opinion or theoretical discussions.
EDIT: forgot to finish this part lol.
People try to convince other people of these things through reason, morality, and emotion. Sometimes, it just can't be done.
Example: Someone doesn't see what's wrong with killing people. Because they are on different MORAL PLANES, it would be extremely difficult to appeal to them why mass shootings are an issue if they don't believe they are for whatever reason.
Example 2: You think rhetoric is bad, manipulative, and shouldn't be used in argumentation (though everyone uses it all the time). Your ignorance on the topic and belief that it is like cheating, if I remember the phrase correctly, puts us on different logical and moral planes.
Get it yet?


Now, what I was really getting at was in the second part you didn't understand.

Remember that little discussion you and I had about rhetoric? That's what I mean ^-^
You see logic and reason alone. I very much dislike debating with you because you are totally insensitive to the actual meaning I put behind my words. Example: what I'm quoting right now.
Your "logic-and-reason" approach is nice and all, but not everything is black-and-white... which is what logic and reason are used for. Black and white decisions. Now, if I had half of a cake and I wasn't sure how much to eat, I wouldn't go and calculate the exact caloric intake that would be most beneficial to my health. No. I want some damn cake, I'm gonna eat how much I feel like eating. That's what I was saying about you and I butting heads. You look too specifically at situations, and it bothers me.

And your denial that you use rhetoric also bothers me. I can find quite a lot in your post above if you'd like me to prove you wrong.

So now you're blatantly saying that atheists are less close-minded. Would you just stop stereotyping? It really isn't that difficult to avoid saying things like that. I promise.

Additionally, since you are such a professional on the matter, and you are such a fan of hard data proving your points, give me the evidence. Find every atheist and show me how open-minded they are. In the world . Or at least a large enough case study to be of valid argument. Now find every Christian and show how rare it is to find someone who asks and receives tough questions, and is willing to have their minds changed.
Or, just don't mention it

While I agree that it is more difficult to find mature conversation among a children's game, get off your damn high horse and get into the real world. I can't believe you really think like this. Do you realize that people of faith often question their faith? It's a normal thing. I have had countless friends that alternate between religions or atheism/agnosticism. It's NORMAL to converse about things like that, and people do it literally all the time. I don't know if your experience with people has just been extremely limited or what, but it's not like that. Please stop assuming it is, because it is considered quite rude.

 

I'm an atheist and I consider myself to be very open minded (I have my stances because I consider them to be the most logical, but if anyone can convince me otherwise with evidence and/or a stance that I can find more logical, I'll change my mind); however, I would not say that atheists are inherently more open minded than Christians. There are plenty of atheists that aren't willing to have productive conversations with Christians because they just regard Christians as 'idiots' for believing in a God.

Now, concerning which one is more open minded, well, I don't think that any of us here are justified to make an official claim on that. Personally, I have met a lot of closed minded theists and I don't think I've met any particularly closed minded atheists, but I know hundreds of theists, whereas I only know a handful of atheists, so I can't make a claim off of those unequal numbers. On top of this, the majority of the people that live in my area are religious, so most of the atheists that I've met were likely raised religious and converted to atheism later on, whereas most of the theists likely stuck with the beliefs that they were raised with. People that choose a belief (or a lack of one) tend to me more open minded and open to discuss it, because they've usually put a lot of thought into it (not that people that stick with the belief that they're raised with don't put thought into it, because a lot of them do, but there are some that don't, whereas there's rarely anyone that converts that doesn't). If the area that I lived in was mainly filled with atheists and there was only a few theists (practically all of whom were converts), it would be likely that the theists would be viewed as being more open minded.

TLR: In order to make an accurate claim on whether or not theists or atheists are more open minded, we'd have to conduct a study by taking people from all around the world, converts and people who were raised with their beliefs alike. When you base a claim like this off of your personal experiences, you risk experiencing regional factors, meeting an unequal amount of theists and atheists, and meeting an unequal amount of people that were raised with their belief and people that converted to their belief.

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 3, 2016, Original Post Date: Apr 3, 2016 ---

This forum is mostly filled with young children who aren't old enough to have deep conversations about this stuff; a lot of them just believe what their parents have taught them, without question. The reason that you experience this more with Christians is because the majority of the people on here are from the United States, where the majority of people are Christians. Because of this, the majority of the children here are Christians. The majority of the atheists here, however, are older teenagers and adults that have converted to atheism, which is why they debate more. There are older and intelligent Christians and other theists here too though, so you can't assume that since the children tend to not have deep conversations with you at an adult level, that the older Christians/theists are going to be like this as well.

 

I would like to ask you to explain why. I can't change my "idiocy" unless I know where I've been an "idiot".

This idiot would like to point out the juicy irony, in which you called me an idiot, while using the 'word' "mispleasure".

But hey, you're human. You're fallible. You made a simple mistake. Who cares, right? We can point it out. Then we learn. We improve. Winner winner.

All I'd like to ask is that you do the same with me. Help a brother out here.

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 3, 2016, Original Post Date: Apr 3, 2016 ---

I was referring to all conversations across all platforms. Reddit, Meepcraft, Other Forums, YouTube and IRL.

From your post, it seems that you're honing in on a question that wasn't there to begin with. You're primarily referring to Meep-goers, and you're primarily talking about religious discussions. I was talking generally, and I believe my initial post made that clear? If it didn't, please let me clarify.

In discussions branching a wide variety of topics? When comparing Atheists to their Theistic counterparts, I find productive conversations overwhelmingly happen with the former than the latter. This usually scales with religiosity too, unsurprisingly. I typically get more productive conversations from 16 year old Deists than I do with Christians. I typically get more productive conversations with 16 year old Atheists that I do with Deists.

Even if we were being Meep specific? Look at the demographic of this forum. Loads of Christians. More than Atheists, almost for sure. Yet, posts regarding religion are usually heavily weighted with more Atheists. We get longer responses, and better conversations. Even when comparing like for like in terms of age!

Lastly, my primary objection was that Christians don't even want to talk about what they believe. There usually isn't even a base curiosity there, to talk about their beliefs. Set solid discourse aside. We can't even get to that stage, because Theists en mass rarely seem courageous enough have their beliefs examined/challenged. Religious or otherwise.

 

The fact that you are so close-minded about "most theists" being closed-minded is the most idiotic thing I bothered to read. That, and the fact that you broke out the thesaurus for my half-assed comment.