An Open Letter to All Young Christians - Please Convince Me.

Created an account just for you guys! On the basis that, a sizable chunk of the "big" debates that happen here? Usually involve a Biblical worldview Vs a non-religious one. Abortion, Gay-rights, Evolution, Atheism. Threads being littered with people stating their view, with very little to back it up. On both sides. Not to mention the amount of misinformation that goes back and forth.

I want to tackle the reasons, the justification for your beliefs (and mine!). WHY you believe what you do. To engage with those that want to share ideas, and have my opinions open to scrutiny, ridicule, you name it! If you can show me flaws in my logic, expose bad arguments on my side, I'd love that. If you get to change my mind for the better, for free? Who's truly the winner there? I'd be stoked!

So, let's get to it! I'd love to know...

1) Why do you cite the Bible as justification for what you believe, if you disagree with parts of it?
If parts of the Bible are immoral or unworthy of following in your eyes, then you don't get your morals from God, do you? Otherwise you'd follow every word. To shun some parts of the Bible, means that you already have a moral system in place. An extra-Biblical source for your values.

2) If Science says X, and the Bible says Y, do you believe the Biblical account over Science? Take 'Evolution' for example. If we have centuries of documented evidence for Evolution? The genetic code and our genetic similarities to other species, the fossil records, observable macro-evolution in Biology, ring-species, etc. If all of what we have observed and discovered about the world we inhabit leads to one answer, and your holy book tells you another? Why would it be acceptable to dismiss Science, in favour of 'faith'?

3) Why is believing something for which you have no good evidence for, a good thing? Isn't that just gullibility? Why is it a good idea to use logic, reason, evidence AMAP in our lives, but when it comes to "The Big Question", we're supposed to suspend all critical thinking to believe in a god?

4) Do you believe in a literal Hell? If so, isn't the idea of an infinite punishment for a finite crime by definition, immoral? Also, if God does something, anything. Is it moral, no matter what it is? There are passages in the Bible where he commits mass genocide (of infants too). How do you reconcile this, or what justification is there for it?

5) Do you believe in the power of prayer? Can it have any effect? We've done multiple studies (one released not too long ago) that showed the ineffectiveness of prayer, and how it was no better than chance.
Not to mention... if your god wants something to happen, it happens, right? Visa versa? So why pray? Arn't you just telling him how to do his job, how he's made a mistake and how you want something that he didn't want.

6) Do you believe that your god is perfectly just? That everything happening under his gaze is absolutely fair and righteous? Do you also believe that he is merciful? If you believe this, it cannot be the case. Mercy opposes that which is just. A perfectly just and merciful being by definition cannot exist. How do you get around this?

7) Why can't God just show himself to us? It was good enough for "Doubting Thomas" in the Bible, and your god showed himself to Thomas. Why can't he do the same for us?

8) Do you have conversations with god? Do you audibly hear him, or speak to him? If so, how? And how could we tell the difference between someone that HAS seen him, and someone that is having delusions and hallucinating of holy images?

9) If you're a Christian, don't you believe in God due to sheer coincidence? By that, I mean... if you were born in the Middle East? You'd most likely be a Muslim. Telling us how we should all strive to live our lives by the Q'uran, and how Allah is the one true god. If it was in India, you'd be a Hindu. You're not a Christian because of any truth-value, it's just geography and tradition. Because most parents pass their religious beliefs down to their children. Agree/Disagree?

10) The big one. Aside from the talking snakes, living in whales, Arcs that can support thousands of animals for 40 days, etc.

Your god (according to the Biblical account) sacrificed himself, to himself, to create a loophole for a rule that he made in the first place. He had himself tortured, just to pass on a message to us? Plus, we're all created sick (with sin), and demanded on the pain of eternal torture to be well again. Your religious symbol is also an ancient torture device.

Can you guys rationalise these for me?

So long as you address at LEAST 1 of the points, I don't mind. But please don't come into the thread and post snidey jabs, or preach Bible verses at me. I'd like a discussion and engage with you. Any posts that have some substantive conversation are more than welcome. Thanks for reading! Oh, and if you have any questions as to what I believe, ask away!

 

Hoooo. Boy.

I do disagree with parts of it, but I do believe god exists, hell exists, heaven exists, purgatory exists. It's something that you basically have to trust, like how you'd trust a dad to protect you as a kid even if he never says that he would.

Again, it's something that you simply put trust in, you choose whether to believe in it or not. I'm not going to try to make you believe it, it is your free will like how it was intended.

Yes I do, no it is not. As long as you die with mortal sins on your soul, you will go to hell, you will be punished. That's the way of life.

Yes. Yes. It's been shown before using miracles that praying can and does have an effect on you, physically and spiritually.

Yes, no, yes. Life isn't fair, that's basically it. There will be bad times, there will be bad people. Sometimes God will choose to save you, other times, it's your choice to go the good or bad.

Basically the same as number 5 - miracles. You don't always have to see them or know that they are there.

Yes. No. Prayer is talking to God, but while He listens we usually don't see or hear Him.

I was born into a Christian family in the US. Maybe I do, maybe I don't. To be honest, it's near impossible to find out. You choose what to believe when you're surrounded by that specific culture.

Jesus was born to open the gates of Heaven for us when he died. As God's son, he could do this.
(Sorry if some of this makes no sense, I am sleepy. But thank you.)

 

Oh hello There!

 

I would prefer you spamming the forums with multiple threads about this instead of jamming 9 topics into one thread.

 

1+2) You didn't answer the question. I'm asking you WHY it's okay to cite the Bible, if you disagree with some parts in it. Then you just say you believe in it, because you believe. Okay. I don't see how that's any different from blind gullibility. Muslims say that they "KNOW" the Q'uran is the word of Allah because they believe and trust in it. How are you any different?

2) Demonstrate that we have free-will. (Not important, that's probably worthy of it's own thread tbh)

4) It IS by definition immoral. An infinite punishment for a finite crime. Hell (if it exists as described in the Bible) is an immoral place. In the Bible, it says that it will send unbelievers to hell. Do you believe this?

5) "Shown using miracles." Can you show me the evidence for this? An assertion isn't enough, I need proof. What about the evidence that prayer has no effect at all? A huge study by Harvard in 2006 showed no efficacy in prayer. http://web.med.harvard.edu/sites/RELEASES/html/3_31STEP.html Surely you've heard of the phrase, "Why doesn't God heal amputees?".

6) You don't think he's perfectly just and merciful, so nothing to address here really.

7) "You don't always have to see them or know that they are there." As the saying goes... "If you can't show it, you don't know it." How do you know there's a god then? Sure, we don't ALWAYS have to have observable evidence, but wouldn't it help a great deal in our case?

Your god has relied on an ancient book, where the language dies out, that relies on copies of copies of translations of copies, just to be where it is today. And this is supposed to be his divine perfect word? Isn't there something about this method that strikes you as... sub-optimal, perhaps?

8) From me earlier - "And how could we tell the difference between someone that HAS seen him, and someone that is having delusions and hallucinating of holy images?"

9) "it's near impossible to find out. You choose what to believe when you're surrounded by that specific culture." - It isn't a choice then, is it? If we know that people who are surrounded by Christians, become Christian. And those that are surrounded by Muslims, Sikhs, Jews, become Muslim, Sikh and Jewish, then how have you chosen which religion to side with? You think that they're all following a false god, right? That they were just born into that culture. Same goes for you, no?

10) "Jesus was born to open the gates of Heaven for us when he died. As God's son, he could do this." I'm not disputing the Biblical account. I'm asking why it makes any sense to you. Why sacrificing himself, to himself, makes sense? Why does he have to create a loophole for a rule HE created? Why do people think it's acceptable to wear torture devices round their neck with such pride? THIS is what I would love to know. I already know what the Biblical account is.

Thanks for replying too, and no worries.

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 15, 2015, Original Post Date: Feb 15, 2015 ---

I don't think that would go down too well with the mods. Can we keep all posts on topic? I really don't want people to have to sift through people arguing semantics, about the state of the thread, about me personally, or about separating the topics etc. If you want to steal one of the points listed here, and create your own thread? Be my guest! Steal away! No intellectual copyright here.

 

Have fun in hell. :3
*As I cannot preach to you, (since we will not see each other in person) It seems impossible to teach you about the Gospel.

 

^

Additionally I laugh at the fact that you aren't man (or woman) enough to post this on your main account
BECUZ JESZUS IS LERD
Not really I mean I don't give 2 sausages about this thread
It's just if you want to seem smart don't hide behind an alt

 

So are old christians not welcome here or do you accept all ages

 

I want to engage with people that disagree with me, and your response is...

A threat of eternal torture?

Not to mention that it's a reprehensible idea that anyone should be swayed or convinced, merely for the fear of punishment.

I even said, "please don't come into the thread and post snidey jabs". Scare-mongering someone to believe in a god, says more about your position that you'd like it to, I think.

EDIT: Your*

 

I agree with some parts too

Well, we have a knife and a stranger. It's your choice whether to kill the person or not. It's your choice to mug that guy down the street. it's your choice.

If you choose some other God, or nothing, directly over the Christian God on purpose, I do believe this. It's one thing to not know about it or if you have osme mental issue or something and you don't believe in God, and another thing to choose not to believe in him.

Google it. there's hundreds of thousands.

See miracles...see Jesus's whole life. I mean, I don't have to make you believe. it's your choice!

Yup.

You can't.

I was born into this family and I agree with the religion my parents have shown me. It's also my choice if I wanted to become Jewish, or Muslim, or whatever else.

Pretty much. it's a a gray area, imo.

it doesn't - and it's not supposed to. it's beyond the human capabilities of understanding.

 

You can use all the 3/4 syllable words that you want but they're meaningless unless you differentiate between your and you're

 

Sure. Fire away. Theists of any walk of life, really. Though other religions might be better off addressed in another thread.

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 15, 2015, Original Post Date: Feb 15, 2015 ---

That's an ad-hominem fallacy. That my arguments are in any way affected by my spelling ability, or poor language skills. They arn't. They stand and fall of their own weight. Whether I say your/you're/Ur, or whatever.

 

I mean I'm with you on this I'm just trying to post sarcastic stuff for likes because this thread is gonna get a lot of traffic and I'm not proud

 

Man, It took me a break to come down here and post something, So yeah. I'm here.

 

I agree with some parts too

Are you going to continue to dodge questions like this? I know you agree with some of the Bible. You disagree with some parts too. I want to know WHY you disagree with some parts.

Well, we have a knife and a stranger. It's your choice whether to kill the person or not. It's your choice to mug that guy down the street. it's your choice.

If nothing happens that isn't Gods will, then we have no free-will. Because we can't make choices that God doesn't approve of. Not to mention that causal-determinism is gaining ground. The idea that we don't have free-will. I'll be honest, I don't know if we do or don't. You say that we do though. So, you'd need to prove it.

If you choose some other God, or nothing, directly over the Christian God on purpose, I do believe this. It's one thing to not know about it or if you have osme mental issue or something and you don't believe in God, and another thing to choose not to believe in him.

You believe that all non-Christians will be sent to a place of eternal torture? Okay. Do you think this is just, or do you think it's unjust?

Google it. there's hundreds of thousands.

Nope, that's not how the burden of proof works. You made a claim, you have to prove it. Not me. There have been ZERO confirmed reports of miracles. If you can find one, I'd love to see it. Change my mind.

See miracles...see Jesus's whole life. I mean, I don't have to make you believe. it's your choice!

I'm not saying that you're trying to make me believe. I'm asking for why YOU believe. Or what you can present to convince me that you're right. If there is a god, I'd like to know. I don't want to be wrong, and I'd love to be proven wrong so I can better myself. And, how do you know about Jesus's life? How do you know about miracles? Again, I'd love some proof rather than just bold assertions.

So you have no problem with it? The fact that god has decided to relay information, for which people will and won't be sent to an afterlife of the most excruciating, eternal torture, in an old book? In languages that die off with multiple copies and translations?

You can't. [Tell the difference]

So how do you know that you're not just hallucinating when you talk to god?

I was born into this family and I agree with the religion my parents have shown me.

Why is it that most children agree with the religion in which they were taught? Does that not say something to you? Childhood indoctrination perhaps?

If you were born into a culture that you had no control over, how is it then a choice to believe in the god you were brought up in? Not to mention the millions of people that were brought up without ANY knowledge of Christianity at all. Why do they get to miss out on Heaven, just because they don't know? How is that their fault?

it doesn't - and it's not supposed to. it's beyond the human capabilities of understanding.

Do you do this every time you come up with something in the Bible that doesn't make sense? Why not try to understand it? How do you know that it's beyond the capabilities of human understanding? Surely that's the job of the Bible, to show us what to believe and why?

You and I are simple humans, and I bet even we could come up with better ways to spread the divine word. You even admit right there that it doesn't make sense, I'm sure you could come up with something better. But if you're going to revert back to "Well we can't, because god is by definition perfect and there is nothing better than him." then why do you disagree with parts of the Bible? Why is slavery okay? He even tells you how much to pay for some of them.

 

It'd be a better use for this space.

Also, why do you guys feel the need to start a thread against Christians? If you're gonna make a debate, please don't make it one sided.

 

Woah. Hang on. If you want to create a joke-thread, do it in your own time, on your own terms. It's not fair to hi-jack a thread for your own means. Not cool.

"I find it kind of insulting". Cool. You're offended. So what? 'Hurt feelings' hold no weight in an argument.

If religion was JUST something people kept entirely to themselves, I could see where you're coming from. But it isn't. It tries to govern our politics, our education systems, our laws, and our social norms.

Plus, this ISN'T a flame war. I explicitly expressed a desire to exchange ideas, and that I want to be proven wrong wherever possible so I can better myself. I want my own ideas scrutinised and tested, as would I like this to happen to everyone else, ideally. So we can have the best moral, best values, best ideas. And I don't think it should stop merely because challenging what people believe offends you.

Je suis Charlie.

EDIT: Damn, I wish I'd have quoted more of your post. Going back and deleting 90% of what you said is extremely dishonest at best. Please don't post in this thread again unless it's on topic, thank you.

 

In most cases, science and theology is two different things. But something I think is a problem, is that the bible was something humans created, they just wrote down something that had been passed down verbally, so it's highly likely that it's changed a lot when it's been passed down trough a buttload of generations through a few decades. And for all we know, that part wasn't really even told entirely to humans, but since we have a need of knowing the answer to questions like that, it might as well have just been someone puzzling together something together that they thought was about correct, then passed it down verbally.

This most likely also answered one of your other questions, about whether I believe in everything in the bible, and no, I don't. Once humans are involved, and especially when they pass things down verbally for a few decades/thousand years.... it's pretty certain that it's changed quite a bit.

 

I'd disagree that Science and Theology are two vastly different things, though it depends on the religious text, obviously. Most holy books (The Bible especially) make many claims about science, or about the universe we inhabit.

That's an aside really. The meat of your post explains why you don't believe everything in the Bible. Okay, what about the parts you DO believe? And do you reject anything that's discovered in Science that contradicts the biblical account?

I appreciate any replies, and the fact that you've at least took a stab at one of them is great. But if we're only going to tackle a small amount of what's been said, I'd rather tackle the most important one, with you.

What do you believe, and why. I'm guessing that you're a Christian, probably even one that believes in Evolution? Why do you believe in a god then? I agree that copies of copies of translations of copies, of a language that dies out, may omit some information or have some inaccuracies. Understatement of the year, right? So how and why do you take anything in the Bible as worthy of your belief?