Time to think

Lady_Hestia

Can I suggest to make the most rewarding parts of meepcraft also be the most fun? Currently as it stands, you can make a whole ton of money just gathering stuff for people to buy, but that's not necessarily fun.
~ @PseudoGod

more fun than sitting at your wood grinder all day and selling to the shop
fun=/=easy

Bob4444444

more fun than sitting at your wood grinder all day and selling to the shop
fun=/=easy
~ @Lady_Hestia

yeah but it seems that everything has to be difficult and the game has to be work instead of fun

the server and Eco is a lot better than before and I don't even know the difference between a better Eco and this one

right now you have to work a good amount to make meebles, so I don't seem how much of an issue all of this is when the game is already hard enough

mending kinda balances everything out and adds more of an equilibrium because it seems like the direction the server is going is to make the game nearly impossible to make money, just to make the Eco "better" in a sense

but what if a new player joins and they don't have mending or anywhere to sell there stuff? they won't know how to make money and they'll log off. maybe put up a poll for like 3 days and see what everybody has to say, instead of seeing what everybody says within 24 hours and basing it off of that

twomoo1119

Yes but... Farmable items are at a huge risk, most players make their money off them, lemme explain

Now, you're thinking of course! Farmable items are always going lower and lower but that isn't fully true. See when sell was in place it always made sure the value of an item was above a certain amount and the buy would make sure it's below a certain amount so the the value of non liquid assets always stays within a range. Now since sell has been removed, all items can go as low as 0 but never beyond their buy price. This rases a huge issue! If one and only one player makes a really big farm, say guardian, and is willing to sell his products for really cheap, he can cause the value of that item to drop to whatever he wants. Now that's it is virtually worthless other players will sell for no more than that price and the market for it has crashed. This should logically happen to many items and even if it's not all at once, if the bigger shops slowly lower the price, they can also destroy the value of that item.

See what I mean?
--- Double Post Merged, 5 minutes ago, Original Post Date: 10 minutes ago ---
Note removing buy is not the solution, then players could also rapidly increase the price and thus the meeble

CluelessKlutz

It's difficult to balance this. Meebles need to be easy enough for new players to get, but difficult enough to keep more advanced players interested.

I, for one, would prefer the best way to make money being items, rather than minigames. I don't think minigames should be nerfed, because we need to keep the prize just high enough to make people play it.

Yes but... Farmable items are at a huge risk, most players make their money off them, lemme explain
Now, you're thinking of course! Farmable items are always going lower and lower but that isn't fully true. See when sell was in place it always made sure the value of an item was above a certain amount and the buy would make sure it's below a certain amount so the the value of non liquid assets always stays within a range. Now since sell has been removed, all items can go as low as 0 but never beyond their buy price. This rases a huge issue! If one and only one player makes a really big farm, say guardian, and is willing to sell his products for really cheap, he can cause the value of that item to drop to whatever he wants. Now that's it is virtually worthless other players will sell for no more than that price and the market for it has crashed. This should logically happen to many items and even if it's not all at once, if the bigger shops slowly lower the price, they can also destroy the value of that item.
See what I mean?
--- Double Post Merged, 5 minutes ago, Original Post Date: 10 minutes ago ---
Note removing buy is not the solution, then players could also rapidly increase the price and thus the meeble
~ @twomoo1119

Building farms is a crucial part to the economy, honestly. They serve as both a drain and a stimulant to the economy because they challenge people to build bigger and better, using up more materials. The price will only drop if there is a lot of competition, and someone decides to lower their price.

twomoo1119

It's difficult to balance this. Meebles need to be easy enough for new players to get, but difficult enough to keep more advanced players interested.
I, for one, would prefer the best way to make money being items, rather than minigames. I don't think minigames should be nerfed, because we need to keep the prize just high enough to make people play it.
Building farms is a crucial part to the economy, honestly. They serve as both a drain and a stimulant to the economy because they challenge people to build bigger and better, using up more materials. The price will only drop if there is a lot of competition, and someone decides to lower their price.
~ @CluelessKlutz

Mayors can fix this but it's like the biggest taboo on meepcraft, percentile resident tax.

It's difficult to balance this. Meebles need to be easy enough for new players to get, but difficult enough to keep more advanced players interested.
I, for one, would prefer the best way to make money being items, rather than minigames. I don't think minigames should be nerfed, because we need to keep the prize just high enough to make people play it.
Building farms is a crucial part to the economy, honestly. They serve as both a drain and a stimulant to the economy because they challenge people to build bigger and better, using up more materials. The price will only drop if there is a lot of competition, and someone decides to lower their price.
~ @CluelessKlutz

Or they can also lower price to get many more buyers

KlutchDecals

My thought process was this.

New players join and USUALLY jump into minigames. They play a few ans say "What are meebles for"
They see towns and join someones. Once they get a plot with their starter cash they go to wild. Fill up chests with crap.
They begin making a house until they say "anyone selling a blank" we refer them to vshop where they are introduced to even more ways to make meebles.
They will find out about gold trading which is always open, jobs, voting, ect.

What keeps players coming back time and time again is not meebles, easy of gaining them, plots, farming, or any of that. its FRIENDS.
You guys are the key component to player retention. If you just talk to 1 person per day and say "Nice house! Message me when its done I wanna see!" They will always love seeing you on and love coming back. Offering them a job in the town, playing minigames with them, mining adventures, ect. This is where the core of the community lies. As much as you guys want to refer to "New players need more ways to make $" Its complete poo. New players are given dozens of ways to make money from clearing plots to mentioned above. SImplicity is not what makes players retain. Its you.

Jinkeloid

I'm a capitalist, I love money, I don't support this (period)

Lady_Hestia

Ok but even once you grind a little you can start making money other ways. Become an entrepreneur like JeffHill and buy out markets and sell them for overpriced amounts. You can have a huge town and tax your residents.(that's the endgame anyway)
And once klutch does the jobs update we will have to start depending on eachother for resources. A miner will depend on diggers and hunters for Tnt. A builder relies on diggers, miners, and woodcutters for materials.
And if we want to add a job for making tools everyone will depend on that person and if we keep mending this person will be utterly useless.

Dockson

Ok but even once you grind a little you can start making money other ways. Become an entrepreneur like JeffHill and buy out markets and sell them for overpriced amounts. You can have a huge town and tax your residents.(that's the endgame anyway)
And once klutch does the jobs update we will have to start depending on eachother for resources. A miner will depend on diggers and hunters for Tnt. A builder relies on diggers, miners, and woodcutters for materials.
And if we want to add a job for making tools everyone will depend on that person and if we keep mending this person will be utterly useless.
~ @Lady_Hestia

The thing you are missing here is, that people hate to spend money. Even more so if there is a serious lack of it.

The idea of people depending on other people is cute, but it doesn't quite work. Especially now, with a really slow income. I am talking from personal experience here. Ever since /warp shop selling was removed, my sales have dropped a lot. People aren't as willing to spend money as before. Of course, if you really need something, you'll just bite your lip and buy it, but with a limited income comes limited trading. Makes sense right. What this change to /warp shop brought is just a slower pace economy, not explicitly a more fun one.

If this was supposed to make people rely more on player to player trades, then it's not something I would call a success.

twomoo1119

My thought process was this.
New players join and USUALLY jump into minigames. They play a few ans say "What are meebles for"
They see towns and join someones. Once they get a plot with their starter cash they go to wild. Fill up chests with crap.
They begin making a house until they say "anyone selling a blank" we refer them to vshop where they are introduced to even more ways to make meebles.
They will find out about gold trading which is always open, jobs, voting, ect.
What keeps players coming back time and time again is not meebles, easy of gaining them, plots, farming, or any of that. its FRIENDS.
You guys are the key component to player retention. If you just talk to 1 person per day and say "Nice house! Message me when its done I wanna see!" They will always love seeing you on and love coming back. Offering them a job in the town, playing minigames with them, mining adventures, ect. This is where the core of the community lies. As much as you guys want to refer to "New players need more ways to make $" Its complete poo. New players are given dozens of ways to make money from clearing plots to mentioned above. SImplicity is not what makes players retain. Its you.
~ @KlutchDecals

Though players are a part of this, it proves how little control have over the entire economy.

The thing you are missing here is, that people hate to spend money. Even more so if there is a serious lack of it.
The idea of people depending on other people is cute, but it doesn't quite work. Especially now, with a really slow income. I am talking from personal experience here. Ever since /warp shop selling was removed, my sales have dropped a lot. People aren't as willing to spend money as before. Of course, if you really need something, you'll just bite your lip and buy it, but with a limited income comes limited trading. Makes sense right. What this change to /warp shop brought is just a slower pace economy, not explicitly a more fun one.
If this was supposed to make people rely more on player to player trades, then it's not something I would call a success.
~ @Dockson

First part, I would agree with, in fact it's already evident that meepcraft's economy is deflating. The second part we need some way to have players in all this but enough that one player can have a huge effect on the economy.

builderjunkie012

Ok but even once you grind a little you can start making money other ways. Become an entrepreneur like JeffHill and buy out markets and sell them for overpriced amounts. You can have a huge town and tax your residents.(that's the endgame anyway)
And once klutch does the jobs update we will have to start depending on eachother for resources. A miner will depend on diggers and hunters for Tnt. A builder relies on diggers, miners, and woodcutters for materials.
And if we want to add a job for making tools everyone will depend on that person and if we keep mending this person will be utterly useless.
~ @Lady_Hestia

This sounds great, but how realistic is it? Most players have access to multiple jobs, and, if they make money from those jobs AND get those materials they need for free, they won't waste their hard earned cash buying them off of each other. Furthermore, any surplus they have will go into the vshop to be sold. However, if the economy is based around grinding jobs and selling items, the items that those jobs pay players to acquire rapidly build up, and, if everyone is grinding the same items, leaves very little room for a market on those items. As a result, the price of the item hits a baseline market demand, which is lowest price bounded by immediate demand. Currently, the only issue with a jobs bases economy is that there is no solution clearly outlined for the rapid buildup of unneeded items. I know that klutch has mentioned server buybacks to help eliminate items that have dropped too far, but these buybacks currently don't have any specifics, nor do they offer any guarantee that any such program will be worthwhile for players selling their items to server entities

Dockson

I know that klutch has mentioned server buybacks to help eliminate items that have dropped too far, but these buybacks currently don't have any specifics, nor do they offer any guarantee that any such program will be worthwhile for players selling their items to server entities
~ @builderjunkie012

The biggest issue I see here is the lack on manpower to maintain such a system. /warp shop was automated, no problem there. A server buyback system would have to be set up everytime when needed, the prices would have to be carefully set and monitored, etc.

We can barely work through the very important Trello stuff. Can we really sacrifice time to have this system?

KlutchDecals

The thing you are missing here is, that people hate to spend money. Even more so if there is a serious lack of it.
The idea of people depending on other people is cute, but it doesn't quite work. Especially now, with a really slow income. I am talking from personal experience here. Ever since /warp shop selling was removed, my sales have dropped a lot. People aren't as willing to spend money as before. Of course, if you really need something, you'll just bite your lip and buy it, but with a limited income comes limited trading. Makes sense right. What this change to /warp shop brought is just a slower pace economy, not explicitly a more fun one.
If this was supposed to make people rely more on player to player trades, then it's not something I would call a success.
~ @Dockson

I find this to be wrong on all accounts. Ive sold every item I listed on shop and I never listed below anyone.

The biggest issue I see here is the lack on manpower to maintain such a system. /warp shop was automated, no problem there. A server buyback system would have to be set up everytime when needed, the prices would have to be carefully set and monitored, etc.
We can barely work through the very important Trello stuff. Can we really sacrifice time to have this system?
~ @Dockson

Also this is a pretty ignorant post considering weve been adding things every single day for over a month.

cooey

My thought process was this.
New players join and USUALLY jump into minigames. They play a few ans say "What are meebles for"
They see towns and join someones. Once they get a plot with their starter cash they go to wild. Fill up chests with crap.
They begin making a house until they say "anyone selling a blank" we refer them to vshop where they are introduced to even more ways to make meebles.
They will find out about gold trading which is always open, jobs, voting, ect.
What keeps players coming back time and time again is not meebles, easy of gaining them, plots, farming, or any of that. its FRIENDS.
You guys are the key component to player retention. If you just talk to 1 person per day and say "Nice house! Message me when its done I wanna see!" They will always love seeing you on and love coming back. Offering them a job in the town, playing minigames with them, mining adventures, ect. This is where the core of the community lies. As much as you guys want to refer to "New players need more ways to make $" Its complete poo. New players are given dozens of ways to make money from clearing plots to mentioned above. SImplicity is not what makes players retain. Its you.
~ @KlutchDecals

In a nutshell everyone be cluelessklutz lol (@kschmidt)

PainCakexx1997

The thing you are missing here is, that people hate to spend money. Even more so if there is a serious lack of it.
~ @Dockson

There is no lack of money in the eco, it is steadly climbing and people are buying stuff from v-shop and player shops. Think about it, if you look at the baltop the firts 160 people has 75k or more in the bank. But this does not mean that people are spending money, well i would show you the numbers if /sales worked but it doesn't but i would like to think that people are doing more trade via v-shop. And you could say that oh but you do not have any numbers on that, but you do not have any numbers on it either so if you are basing this of player shops well then i think you need to advertise more or get more items in your shop.

Especially now, with a really slow income. I am talking from personal experience here. Ever since /warp shop selling was removed, my sales have dropped a lot. People aren't as willing to spend money as before. Of course, if you really need something, you'll just bite your lip and buy it, but with a limited income comes limited trading. Makes sense right. What this change to /warp shop brought is just a slower pace economy, not explicitly a more fun one.
If this was supposed to make people rely more on player to player trades, then it's not something I would call a success.
~ @Dockson

The fact is that we haven't even seen the long term effect of this change and you are allready judging it? If meeps economy reaches a point were everyone owns everything would that be more fun? NO because that will happen at some point if we do not do changes that balances stuff out. We need to run a economy that can be controlled in some shape or form. All i can see is complaining and i do not see you coming with a suggestion to changeing it for the better so this comment is funny ;) But i guess that is all i can expect...

All in all gamma has been here for about a month now and there is 91 million meebles in the eco, the first 160 people on baltop has 75k or more in their bank. And i do agree, you do have to put more effort in to getting meebles, but i did not come to meep to stand still all day at a grinder and wait for the end of the server. That is that.

Dockson

Okay, first of all, let me tell you the end game I am fighting here for, because it seems, that people only nitpick on bits I write here, just for the sake of arguing whatever point they have.

The sell option should never have been removed from /warp shop. Certain items should have had their sell prices significantly lowered. I don't think the current system is any more enjoyable short or long term speaking than the old system was.

Also this is a pretty ignorant post considering weve been adding things every single day for over a month.
~ @KlutchDecals

Great job ignoring the important bit again. Never said you did absolutely nothing. I can not thank you enough for what you put on your back and do for the server every day, but I can not shake off the feeling you seem really irritated if anyone dares to speak against you and you act as if I ate your lunch buddy. Do I think your behaviour is unacceptable at times? Yes, definitely, but I can also understand it. You said it yourself; "Not a peoples person". Fair enough.

The important bit of the paragraph you quoted was the first 2 lines, never mind the last one. Could you explain how you plan on implementing a buy back system? How often would it be opened up? How would you determine prices? Who would manage it?
I am sure you can see where my concern comes from.

I find this to be wrong on all accounts. Ive sold every item I listed on shop and I never listed below anyone.
~ @KlutchDecals

I may act dumb sometimes, but when I say I personally experienced a drop in trades after the removal of /sell, I was not being delirious. I do not have facts to support my claims, I just have my experience and the experience of other people I've talked to since.
I don't get what you mean "wrong on all accounts" as if you were disregarding my experience and putting yours as the relevant one.
Sure, people still sell a lot on vshop, that's unavoidable, my point is, there is less being traded as it would had with /sell still in place.

My thinking behind this, is the following. I'll use semi-relevant numbers for this. Let's say, with sell there was a solid 4M added to the eco every day. Without it, there's only 2m. Right? People earn only half of what they used to, but prices don't drop to half their price overnight. Logically, the result is less trades compared to what could have been.

Think about it, if you look at the baltop the firts 160 people have 75k or more in the bank.
~ @PainCakexx1997

Now you think about where those people got their money from. Again, without any facts, my guess would be, that it wasn't made after the removal of /sell.

And you could say that oh but you do not have any numbers on that, but you do not have any numbers on it either so if you are basing this of player shops well then i think you need to advertise more or get more items in your shop.
~ @PainCakexx1997

That's a great argument buddy, but no, I wasn't talking about my shop. I was talking about general player to player trading, which was very successful before, mind you.

All i can see is complaining and i do not see you coming with a suggestion to changeing it for the better so this comment is funny But i guess that is all i can expect...
~ @PainCakexx1997

Stop being a hypocrite and leave your sarcasm for yourself. You made a thread and poll about the Meep's economy and promised results 3 weeks ago. I haven't seen anything from you since, nor did I see any relevant suggestions other than to remove mending.

PainCakexx1997

Now you think about where those people got their money from. Again, without any facts, my guess would be, that it wasn't made after the removal of /sell.
~ @Dockson

First off, what are you even going on about. There are multiple ways that people make money of the server, to mention a few it can be grinding for materials which is the most common one. But it can also be something as simple as buying materials now to sell them at a later date for profits. Idk what point you are trying to make there but whatever.

That's a great argument buddy, but no, I wasn't talking about my shop. I was talking about general player to player trading, which was very successful before, mind you.

~ @Dockson

And now i will ask you, were are you getting these facts from. you have shown nothing to back what you are stating. If what you mean by before is alpha/beta well then i am kinda scared what you think a good economy is. We need to ballance, the shops advantage was that it could set a minimum drop price at the market, but that was also the dissadvantage. It is like the Us government stateing that from now on we will be buying all bananas for 4 dollars each. Then it is impossible for a private company to buy bannans for lower then that. Which means it will be more expensive for the consumer to buy those bananas. That is not a free market, are we not a player based economy server?

Stop being a hypocrite and leave your sarcasm for yourself. You made a thread and poll about the Meep's economy and promised results 3 weeks ago. I haven't seen anything from you since, nor did I see any relevant suggestions other than to remove mending.
~ @Dockson

This is what the post stated

This survey is about meepcraft and what we think that meepcraft can improve on, this survey is not about everything on meep but it asks questions about some of the bigger things on meepcraft. I hope as many of you as possible will answer the 8 questions that is there I will make the results public after the survey is done, but every vote stays secret, this means that if you vote on something your name will NOT be made public. It takes about 5 min to do the survey so i hope everyone can support this effort to get your opinions to staff.
Have a nice day
Paincakexx1997
~ @PainCakexx1997

I never promised results, i would present the facts to the public which i will say that i totally forgot to do and i will take that on my cape. But the simple fact still remains, you are still just talking about the mistakes that was made. Can you state what you think the advantages and dissadvatages would be with keeping the shop? Because the advantage with removing the sell option is tearing the player economy out from the shop. This is not a decision soly based on an economy standpoint, it is also based on a gameplay experience standpoint. What would be the most fun with the plan that is in motion behind this, i think you need to not only look at what is in front of you but also on what is planned for the future.

Whatever we have good sooooo far of the tracks so that is the last thing i will say about that, back to mending.

Mending is dangerous for the eco, it is like a /fix that you give xp as the only sacrifice. And the losses of items because of deaths and messups is not going to have a big enough effect on the amount of items that is pileing up. The simple fact is that mending makes it so that the supply wastly outways the demand for an item like diamonds or iron as examples. Look i get it, everyone wants to have as many advantages as possible to get to whatever goal they have set themself. But the problem is not that, the problem is when you have reached all your goals what do you do? you quit? sit there? what? You could say that mending alone will not create a big enough cut in to the supply and that it will still pile up items even when mending has been nerfed hard or removed, but like my dad told me 'Do you want to watch the train crash, or do you want to try to stop it?' Well in my opinion we need to start somewhere and that somewhere mending.

That was a little meh but mehmeh ;)

Have a nice day ;)

PainCakexx1997

Peero

If you remove it I quit.

Pmx728

I 100% agree with removing mending books except Elytras would break insanely fast. Unlike armour and tools, the elytra is mainly used for fun. A lot of new players come onto the server and want to try out the elytra course, and fly around the server. There is already a high demand, but if mending is removed from elytras it would almost impossible for a new player to get enough money to buy an elytra.

So I would like a removal of mending and elytras to become unbreakable.

Lady_Hestia

I 100% agree with removing mending books except Elytras would break insanely fast. Unlike armour and tools, the elytra is mainly used for fun. A lot of new players come onto the server and want to try out the elytra course, and fly around the server. There is already a high demand, but if mending is removed from elytras it would almost impossible for a new player to get enough money to buy an elytra.
So I would like a removal of mending and elytras to become unbreakable.
~ @Pmx728

Oooh I didn't think about elytras. You make an excellent point. I'd like to see others thought on solutions. I really don't think elytras should be so rare because our elytra course is so popular.

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